NOOD - Big Boats???

[Big John]

Is there going to be a big boat class at the Houston Nood?  Marty is listed as Class Coordinator and has not been heard from.  Greg Way proposed using 66-84  as the class limits.  He has the ulterior motive of wanting proof that his rating is too low.  Maybe there are out of area boats or other boats that are larger and longer than the old L70 rule but rate in the band.  Chiron? Sea Quell?  Or others that would just like to party.  I think we need five boats to even have a chance for an invitation.  I, for one, am willing to race against *#^$%@ J109's if they do not make a class.  How about it?  Who is willing to step up?  Are we

Or am I going to have to charter a J22 and race against Tom Sutton and Larry Blankenhagen anyway???

Level ? 70? How about no rules in this knife fight? 
Millennium Express
Leading Edge
Parrot Tales
Gold Rush
J109's
Out of area boats (Dallas? New Orleans, Corpus???)


Level? 30
Mojo
Re-evolution 1D35
J120
J122
King 40
Alinghi cat

Who is in and who is out?
John Butler

[krafftm]

HYDRODYN will be racing in the NOOD.

Although none of us have registered yet (Sept. 14 deadline) Level 70 (69-84, symmetric kites only) could have:
HYDRODYN
Millennium Express
Leading Edge
Parrot Tales

I talked to the NOOD coordinator about class size. They realize that hurricane Ike put the hurt on us, but they are very anxious to have a good turnout anyway. As such, they may be willing to allow classes with less than 6 boats.

Suggest the 109's try to turn out at least 4 boats.

Alternatively, the 109's could join up with other A-Kites to form a larger class.

Take Care
Marty

[Big John]

Well, now we know what it takes to hear from Marty.

Still looking for options with more boats (like say... some I can beat!!)

Another consideration.  NOOD has broken the ice on taking times with the sport boat class.  They are running as a handicap class, why couldn't we??

How many J109's are there and how many are entering.

Still looking for answers. (and questions)


Oh, and by the way, I don't give a ____ for what happens to a level 30 class.  Just thought it might be fun to watch.  Much rather they did not get organized so we could pirate some of their crew. 
John

[Christopher]

Will Surprise, Gambler and OtraVez be back in time?

[Jonsey]

Why exclude assym boats from the Level 70 fleet? 

[El Diablo]

Plus Uno

[KevinBednar]

GBCA should be a trend setter and do a "Spares Cup" the same weekend as the NOOD in which the local PHRF racers get to race without us one design boats on their starts.  Coordinate it with HYC/LYC and let them pick up the bar proceeds and I suspect you'd have a deal.....

[Big John]

Why exclude assym boats from the Level 70 fleet? 

This comes from some traditional thinking and from the fact that most of the times we have raced, even handicap, against the J109's they have inordinately cleaned our clock.  Downwind tactics vary and even upwind, they sail "differently".  Personally, I am out there to have fun and win by stealth and skill, not having the fastest boat, by a mile.  Per my original post, I have no objections to racing with them, as opposed to the dreaded J22 option. 

Looking for debate.

btw Kevin, the NOOD organizers were really down on that sort of thing (concurrent events not under their sanction) in the past.  But someone should ask the question. 

j

[Jonsey]

Run the concurrent event, charge the same entry as people are paying to sail in the NOOD..  all proceeds go to the evening events. 

I think i'll have detoxed by then (Texas Race Week)

[ChrisA]

A Level 30 class is in the works. Out of town boats are showing interest in coming.

[STuma]

One thing that has never made sense:  the level 70 class has been hurting for years & they would rather exclude A-boats instead of having them join for a larger class... The "anti-sportboat" rule was in place when there were 8-10 70 boats racing every regatta... That is not the case now... The class has been suffering and people want to become picky on the participants?  If the ratings are correct, the symetrical boats "should" have a large advantage on a windward-leeward course?  Even if they have a 10 second/mile "advantage", wouldn't smart sailing make the field even?  20 seconds in a race is nothing, many give that up at the start, and mark roundings, and bad tacks... I think at this point, with the economy and the participation falling, we do not need to be picky on who to allow to race...  Just my thoughts...

cheers...
Scott

[Bee]

I used to think that it was kind of dumb to not allow the 109's to be part of the level 70 class.  Lately I have come to change my mind.  There are three reasons for this.  The first has to do with the ease of hoisting, dousing, and gybing an A-Kite vs a symmetric.  The second has to do the the current A-Kite "runner" designs.  The third is not so easy for me to explain, so I will leave it under the category of hull/keel/rudder design differences.

In my opinion the biggest difference between the A's and the Sym's is handling ease.  This is especially true for the smaller A-Kites (80's and 105's).  I have timed us against a couple of the best symmetric boats.  Even in the best situation, the timing difference can be significant.  A's can come into the mark at speed and wait until the last moment to douse.  They can hoist at the windward mark as fast or faster than almost any symmetric.  In addition, there is little loss of speed during a gybe. Once the patterns are down, handling the chute is almost too easy.  Don't get me wrong, excellent crew work can minimize these issues to some extent, and certainly there are Sym crews here on the bay that perform these functions with great acumen, but I believe the handling advantage will always reside with the A's.

The first A-Kites might best be described as "reachers".  They were very fast when the TWA was around 160-165 degrees and could handle very high TWAs'.  It was at best difficult to rotate these kites for anything close to downwind sailing.  Newer designs have pretty much resolved this issue.  Ed Christie built a 110 sq. mt. for me that could pretty much duplicate the angle of a symmetric.  (Too bad it got destroyed in the last rum race storm.  Hurts to have been able to use it only twice.)  Not going to speculate about whether or not the A-Kites are faster dead-down then a symmetric, but there is no question that the angle difference between a sprit boat and a symmetric are no longer very great.

Judging from observation, its very easy to sail the current A-Kites to their numbers.  I have watched the 109's just kill everyone in light air and have seen the same thing happen with the 105's in heavy air.   When a 105 outruns a J44 downwind one can only conclude that hull/keel/rudder design differences are at work. Same is true for the M32's.  I just cannot conceive of an older design Sym staying with the 32 off wind.

Having said all that it would be interesting to see how a Level 70 class might shake out with 109's included.  My guess is that the 109's would dominate, but that there would be at least a couple of very competitive Sym's in the pack.  We do after all have some really great sailors here.  I think we all know who they are.  On the other hand dominance of the 109's might do significant damage to participation in the Level 70 fleet.  This potential to suppress participation is why, if I own a Level 70 Sym, I would probably vote against their inclusion.

BTW, neither the 80's, 105's, or 109's can technically be classed as sport boats.  Their SA/Disp ratio is less than 30 --- the break point for sport vs sprit. At something like 45, its clear that the M32 is definitely a sport boat.

[STuma]

Bee, I agree fully... I have been running Asymmetricals for 19 years now... but, my point/question is two fold (for the fleet); if a class is going to limit who can sail, they should not complian about low participation... And, the rating of the boat should factor in the "ease" of sailing the design provides...  not fully suggesting the 109's should have a lower rating and not eligible for the class, that is another point... but, if a boat falls into the rating range, why not let them in?  I have always been up for a challange and limited because it is an uphill battle (that's why we sailed a light air boat in 25-28 knots of wind)...  I personally think the 109's are rated too slow, but that is another committee's decision... but a boat shouldn't be limited because they have a sprit or their SA/DISP ratio...  The M24 has fought this battle for years... I think we are limiting our selves and killing the sport... things change, and we have to adapt to that... I remember comments about an A-boat will never win because they cannot sail down wind... That was a long time ago and proves that sailing does evolve, even when it is held back...

cheers...
Scott

[Funk]

This conversation has been had before.  The original intent was for very similar boats to race heads-up in the 70's band.  If the boats are racing to thier individual  handicap in level 70 then what is the point of excluding all boats in that rating band?  In defense of the 109's they are the newest boats ie...the fastest they will ever be, as well as;  upon observation, the boats making the fewest mistakes on the race course.  Rate the boat not the sailor.

Regards,

[BJSailor]

Hmmmmm... I seem to be experiencing what a friend would call cognitive dissonance.

If symetric spin boats and a-sym spin boats have the same PHRF rating for windward / leeward courses and the a-sym boats seem to constantly beat the symetric boats, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the PHRF numbers are out of whack?  I mean, after all, isn't the idea of PHRF to handicap similar boats so that they correct out in a competitive fashion?  All this about hoisting / dousing, wind angles, sail cuts, etc. doesn't add up if the handicap formula assignments rate the boats as similar.  Either the J/109s and symetric old-boys rate the same, or they don't.  the PERFORMANCE part of PHRF may be a factor here if the 109s are able to execute sail change and maneuver evolutions faster / better than their symetric equivalents.  If the traditional Level 70 boats don't want the 109s playing in their sandbox, maybe they ought to lobby for a rating change for the 109s.  It seems they have grounds...   Alternatively, maybe the 109s could set / douse a little slower, sail a little lower, take a bit longer to gybe.  But then I guess Rule 2 would come into play:-)

In the end, this age-old argument has been discussed ad nauseum before and has generate many thousands of $'s for Mt. Gay and other rum brewers in the course of bar arguements.  In fact, it earned them another couple of oz. worth or revenue while I posted this

Would it make any sense to actually do something quantative to measure the equality / disparity between these boats?  What about a number of windward legs sailed over about a 2nm course to get a number of data points from a number of bothe J/109s and symetric Level-70s.  Add in some leeward legs and we can have some solid numbers to go forward to either ask PHRFGB for a change or for everyone to play happy TOGETHER!  Just an idea...

You wanted discussion John...