Speaking of PHRF ratings. A question...

Bee · January 28, 2014, 04:52:02 PM

I did not think you were complaining, but I was surprised to find the 81% for both your and my kites. I should think this big of a difference would warrant more then 3 secs/mile --- just not sure about the 120% headsail.

PHRF here (maybe everywhere) has always been a pain.

BTW, Stinger is the "big" red and white chute behind you in the picture.

JA · January 29, 2014, 09:58:16 AM

We might be a pain, but at least it keeps some order into the world of so many sailboats going out and trying to compete on the same race course. I really feel sorry for you poor J boat sailors showing up with your light displacement boats and "big" A-kites, which on a close reach in light air become a 180% genoa. Is it fair to other more conventional boats and their rating? I don't know, I just try to stay as close as I can to the Catalina 22's and hope for the best!

svShearwater · January 29, 2014, 10:39:37 AM

Quote from: Bee on January 28, 2014, 04:52:02 PM
I did not think you were complaining, but I was surprised to find the 81% for both your and my kites. I should think this big of a difference would warrant more then 3 secs/mile --- just not sure about the 120% headsail.

At the moment my 81% kite hasn't warranted any change. Neither has the 120% headsail as my rating is exactly the same as 2013 when I measured in a 150% headsail and full size kite. That said, it is all under review by PHRFGB. Maybe there was a mistake in my 2014 rating. Should know soon.

Charles · January 29, 2014, 10:55:49 AM

Quote from: JA on January 29, 2014, 09:58:16 AM
We might be a pain, but at least it keeps some order into the world of so many sailboats going out and trying to compete on the same race course. I really feel sorry for you poor J boat sailors showing up with your light displacement boats and "big" A-kites, which on a close reach in light air become a 180% genoa. Is it fair to other more conventional boats and their rating? I don't know, I just try to stay as close as I can to the Catalina 22's and hope for the best!

There are several for sail, Jim!

JA · January 29, 2014, 11:18:33 AM

Charles selling C-22's as a new hobby? Thanks but I have enough boats as it is! Like I said I just try to stay close and hope for the best!

Bee · January 29, 2014, 11:21:57 AM

Sorry I did not mean to sound contentious. There is no question PHRF is a necessary system. We cannot do without it and I do appreciate the fact that PHRFGB volunteers make it work. But I still maintain it is a pain. OD is more fun, but getting and keeping a fleet together is also a pain.

From Andrea's ORC experiment it is not clear that any of the other systems are any better. Its just not easy to rate the more modern and technology advanced boats accurately. M24's, M32's, J70, and Vipers (even J80's) can and do sail above their ratings simply because they plane. In high enough winds even a J105 will plane for short periods of time. How in the hell would one rate a foiler? Its speed appears to be determined mostly by its apparent wind. Oh and what change would have to be made if the foiler also had an automatic Herbie?

Whether or not they are designed for it and as Cyrano is an example, any boat can be rigged to run a big A-kite or code 0. I have seen at least one C22 so rigged. Flying its A-Kite Cyrano won the Pineapple cup at least once. BTW, Cyrano was previously known on the Bay as Louise. When I sailed on her, her sail complement pretty much kept her from being very competitive but she was really fun to sail. Cyrano has placed in the Icicles, as has Mojo (24 and 32), Pingo, 2 J70s, and at least 2 Vipers.

Why the negative attitude toward J boats?. I think the C22's provide the anser. Since Ben Miller almost single handedly built up the local fleet they have been finishing the Icicles in grand style. Ben has consistently beaten those terrible J's with their huge A-Kites scratch and sometimes by big margins. Any surprise that there is grumbling about the C22 handicap? I mean how can one beat a boat that starts late Friday evening for a Saturday afternoon raced? :-).

BTW, when a OD fleet has one racer that always wins, the same kind of grumbling can cause that fleet to fall apart. No PHRF involved there.

Seems to me we just have to take our lumps and live with however boats are rated relative to one another. No one likes it but it is what it is.

Let's go have some fun in the Judge Elihu Smails race this coming Saturday. Put on that blazer, where that Capt's hat and hoist a few.

Hmmm Beer is good.

svShearwater · January 29, 2014, 06:07:35 PM

And the results are in. 3 second credit for the smaller headsail. The smaller spin doesn't garner a credit. There really isn't a credit available for smaller than class size spins, but there is a penalty for larger than class size spins (ie J105's with 110sqm kites instead of 90sqm class kites. I'm fine with that. Like I said, we went with the smaller spin primarily for handling purposes since we sail Double-Handed and long-term we'll be getting a Downwind Rating from PHRF NorCal which does recognize spinnaker size for the Downwind Ratings.

All good.

Thanks PHRFGB (Jay) for looking into it and making the change.