Registration for the performance cup is now open!
Go to http://www.GBCA.org (http://www.gbca.org) and look under "Performance Cup Regatta" for the Notice of Race, the Registration link, and to see who's racing.
Hope you'll all come out for a great regatta on March 19th and 20th!
One thing we're adding for this regatta:
Distance courses for PHRF Spin and PHRF Non-Spin. The Cruising Club handicap fleet will also be a distance course. These are called "PHRF Spin Distance" and "PHRF Non Spin Distance". They will be pursuit starts similar to the Icicle and Rum races, except we will have you finish at an RC boat.
If you want to sail a windward/leeward type in PHRF, select one of the following choices in Regatta network.
-PHRF Non Spin
-PHRF Spin No sprit
-PHRF Spin Factory Sprit
-PHRF Aftermarket Sprit
As the registrations come in we'll see what fleets make, and give those that don't the option to move to other fleets.
As always, if you have questions, please contact me: rdhunkins(at)verizon(dot)net
Thanks,
Bob H.
Still not sure why we have factory and aftermarket sprit in separate classes? For that matter why spit and non sprit are separated in w/l racing. We have such a small pool of boats racing, to divide them up even further makes very small classes.
We have a good PHRF committee, they should be able to rate a "aftermarket" sprit vs factory sprit and also a sym boat vs asymmetric boat on w/l.
Quote from: hayesrigging on February 17, 2016, 08:40:49 PM
Still not sure why we have factory and aftermarket sprit in separate classes? For that matter why spit and non sprit are separated in w/l racing. We have such a small pool of boats racing, to divide them up even further makes very small classes.
We have a good PHRF committee, they should be able to rate a "aftermarket" sprit vs factory sprit and also a sym boat vs asymmetric boat on w/l.
I don't understand this either Kevin, at least not completely. It does seem to increase the number of boats that have a shot at a trophy and that's probably a good thing.
I recently discussed this with someone who I won't name who knows a lot about this. His position is that we really don't know how to rate some boats, such as one-offs, in PHRF at all. Then when such boats add a sprit the entire mess becomes even more complex. I think this is at least part of the reason for the recent ORC discussions at LYC.
I don't have any direct evidence that ORC is a better system then the way PHRFGB comes up with their ratings (I also think they do a good job) but because its based on a VPP the mathematician in me says that it probably is. In the worst case, it should at least be consistent. It would be nice to test both systems in the rum races just to see how different the results might be. I would be willing to get another ORC cert but the $100/yr fee might limit participation.
If the participation numbers are already down, splitting those limited numbers doesn't make much sense and it doesn't encourage the fleets to grow.
If someone was thinking of buying an old J35 or something similar to race around here, they would be crazy to do it, there's nobody to race against. You will never race against the J109's or the J105's, even the 1D35 that's coming back is going to have a sprit. So, if someone is inclined to spend 60-100K on a raceboat with an interior (which used to be the core of the racing scene on Galveston Bay), I don't know what you would buy and who you would race against.
And I'll go one more than the Sprit/Non-Sprit/Aftermarket Sprit class breaks, is it more fun for anyone to have 3 boat One Design Classes? That just isn't enough boats to be tactically interesting or provide lead changes, tight mark roundings, competitive starts, etc.
It would be nice to see if just one-time a year every 30+ footer on the bay with a PHRF rating between 40-100 in a Windward Leeward class together. Score a sub-class for the 105's and anyone else with 3 or more boats so they get their 1 Design recognition. You may actually see 10 big boats in a class for the first time in a decade and I know it would be fun.
In summary, big fleets are fun, encourage big fleets, not small ones.
Oh, and if getting PHRF ratings on one-offs and modified boats is tough, let them sail windward leewards against each other in a range of conditions. You will eventually get the data points to get better ratings. Never letting them race against each other just exacerbates the problem.
Marc
Can't argue with any of that Marc. In fact, if you look at this year's Icicle races the only non J/Boats in the point were Pingo in 1st (no surprise there) and Gold Rush. My feeling is that Pingo and the sprint based J/Boats have been dominating the PHRF Icicles and Rum races for some time now. I suspect Guacho (B25 with add-on sprit) would be in that bunch as well.
I personally do not like racing OD in a 3 boat class. Its much more fun to have at least 5. I am also reaching that age where distance races are much more acceptable. The 105 fleet is working on growing but its not clear when, or if, we will ever get back to the old 5-7 boat races. J/Boats no longer pushes the 105's or 109's. They are making too much money off J70's and J111's. I would love to have a 111 but they are just too expensive for what you get.
I have said earlier that I really miss the big classes of even as little as 10 years ago. Even if you did not race against them the old level 70 class was interesting to watch. Some really good sailors there. Back then even the Offshore Races had more then the 7 or so spin boats we get today.
Wonder what foilers will do to sail boat racing.
Because of how it simplifies handling the spinnaker, I suspect more and more symmetric will be converting, but as you say, for the most part, they are not likely to be all that competitive with top sprit boats on the Bay.
To clarify, I never said Symmetrical boats couldn't be competitive with the Asyms on the bay.
On a Windward Leeward course the Asyms should have no advantage whatsoever. It's all very hypothetical at this point because there are so few Symmetricals in that rating band, and Race Committees split them apart, which to Kevin's original point makes no sense. And as I understand it there is no longer a rating hit for a boat with a conventional pole to fly an Asym off it, so a J35 (as an example) could carry an Asym for when the wind goes light, fly a Symmetrical off the pole when the wind is up and running deep and probably have an advantage over the sprit boats.
Again, all very hypothetical on Galveston Bay in 2016.
Sorry, my bad. Misread what you said earlier.
Little Joe just registered for the PHRF W/L Class. I am hoping we get a lot of boats on the line.
As far as classes breaks go, what means the most for us is the size of the fleet in our start. I have sailed one-design for years and it was great as long as we had 7 to 10 boats out. Any less than 5 and it was follow the leader. Not much change in positions in a club fleet that small.
For PHRF Spinnaker boats, why not target fleet size as the first principle? Up to 11, one fleet. 12 or more, split all of the spinnaker boats into two rating groups. Or at least keep similar rated boats in the same fleet. And no fleets less than 5.
If, the ASYM don't want to sail against SYM or vice versa, then split it ASYM and SYM. (I don't see the factory vs. non factory).
The only issue with the ASYM all in one class is the overlap with the J- Boats that could sail one-design. I get it. One-design is great. So as not to break up that party, if the 105's and 109's sail one-design, that is their call.
Here's hoping for a big fleet of PHRF boats for the W/L's so that this all works out. :)
More good comments. I do think that the current split that we have for the Icicle and Rum races have actually got more boats out. Its always nice to see 60 or so boats out there competing. The after race parties are usually packed and that is also fun. Kevin Box's GBCA Cruising Class went gang busters for a while and it was nice to see those big boats on the line as well. Now if we could just figure out how to get more boats out for things like the Midwinter, Performance Cup, and ... Not sure that's possible but it would be nice.
Quote from: Dan on February 18, 2016, 02:15:55 PM
Little Joe just registered for the PHRF W/L Class. I am hoping we get a lot of boats on the line.
As far as classes breaks go, what means the most for us is the size of the fleet in our start. I have sailed one-design for years and it was great as long as we had 7 to 10 boats out. Any less than 5 and it was follow the leader. Not much change in positions in a club fleet that small.
For PHRF Spinnaker boats, why not target fleet size as the first principle? Up to 11, one fleet. 12 or more, split all of the spinnaker boats into two rating groups. Or at least keep similar rated boats in the same fleet. And no fleets less than 5.
If, the ASYM don't want to sail against SYM or vice versa, then split it ASYM and SYM. (I don't see the factory vs. non factory).
The only issue with the ASYM all in one class is the overlap with the J- Boats that could sail one-design. I get it. One-design is great. So as not to break up that party, if the 105's and 109's sail one-design, that is their call.
Here's hoping for a big fleet of PHRF boats for the W/L's so that this all works out. :)
The GBCA board and Race Captain are just trying to do what we are hearing that the racers want. We have been told that the aftermarket sprit boats think they can't compete with a factory sprit boat, so we have been experimenting with the split fleet to see if participation increases. Also, we have had better participation overall when we offer distance courses to everyone. Maybe everyone is getting old. If anyone has suggestions on how to make our races better, please come to a board meeting with your ideas. We meet the third Tuesday of ever month ;at 7:00PM.
Charles
GBCA Vice Commodore
Hear Hear.
Of course the average huntabenalina or random cruiser racer is not equipped to race against a j105 or j109 etc simply because they have a small seldom prod added to their boat.
There's a better way.
Quote from: Charles on February 18, 2016, 09:01:33 PM
The GBCA board and Race Captain are just trying to do what we are hearing that the racers want. We have been told that the aftermarket sprit boats think they can't compete with a factory sprit boat, so we have been experimenting with the split fleet to see if participation increases. Also, we have had better participation overall when we offer distance courses to everyone. Maybe everyone is getting old. If anyone has suggestions on how to make our races better, please come to a board meeting with your ideas. We meet the third Tuesday of ever month ;at 7:00PM.
Charles
GBCA Vice Commodore
Quote from: JayZ on February 19, 2016, 12:15:23 AM
Of course the average huntabenalina or random cruiser racer is not equipped to race against a j105 or j109 etc simply because they have a small selden prod/sprit added to their boat.
There's a better way.
Quote from: Charles on February 18, 2016, 09:01:33 PM
The GBCA board and Race Captain are just trying to do what we are hearing that the racers want. We have been told that the aftermarket sprit boats think they can't compete with a factory sprit boat, so we have been experimenting with the split fleet to see if participation increases. Also, we have had better participation overall when we offer distance courses to everyone. Maybe everyone is getting old. If anyone has suggestions on how to make our races better, please come to a board meeting with your ideas. We meet the third Tuesday of ever month ;at 7:00PM.
Charles
GBCA Vice Commodore
If there is a cruising type boat that rates close to a J109 and they decide to install a prod then PHRF should be able to rate the boats to race against each other. That's what the whole premis of PHRF is about. I'm not talking about a 25+ sec/mile spread. PHRF should be able to rate a Hunter 40 with a prod vs a boat of similar speed such as C&C 37. I assume that's why PHRF spent countless hours developing the parameters allowing sprits to be added. If PHRF doesn't intend on rating aftermarket sprits vs traditional sprits or symmetrical boats then why have the parameters of the length of sprit and sail size?? The operating policies of PHRF state that they boat is assumed to be race ready, with race bottom, racing sails, etc. If a boat doesn't havent this I believe that is why the cruising handicap was developed or the cruising spinnaker class (Dacron sails) was developed.
What's gonna happen when the 1D35 shows up with an aftermarket sprit? We form a 18th class and call it "PHRF Aftermarket Sprit Sport Boat" class?? The traditional spin boat that's been around for 40 years has no one to race against anymore. If I were to race Psyched in a bay race I have no one to race against. There is no PHRF spin anymore. They have all been divided up into 3 boat one design classes, sprit classes, aftermarket sprits, etc.
I agree with the earlier suggestion that any of theses classes shouldn't form unless they have a minimum of 5 boats AND the ther boats entered have a minimum of 5 boats to form a competitive class for them to race in. When I was fleet captain and Commodore we always had the "at the discretion of the race committee" written in the NOR when mentioning how and what classes would be offered.
I do think this is a great conversation for Galveston Bay. I'd like to hear what some of the aftermarket sprit boats think? Ben 44.7, 1D35, Sparcraft one ton, etc.
Quote from: hayesrigging on February 19, 2016, 07:00:05 AM
If there is a cruising type boat that rates close to a J109 and they decide to install a prod then PHRF should be able to rate the boats to race against each other.
Not sure I agree. I certainly would like to agree and I know the PHRFGB folk do as good a job as anyone rating the different boats. However, my experience says otherwise. Suppose you have a J105, J109, and Psyched all racing W/L. I am going to assume each boat has top notch sails and are each sailed by the top sailors in each class (not me) on the Bay.
At 6 knots TW I would expect the 109 to top everyone upwind with Psyched close behind. The 109 is a fabulous light air boat. A 105 stinks up the place. Because the shrouds are outboard further then the other two boats the 105 loses the pointing game upwind. After the rounding the 105 and 109 would be close but its unlikely that the 105 could make up the distance. You will have to tell me if Psyched (flying an A-Kite) can catch and pass a 109 downwind in these conditions. I have not seen Psyched in perfect form, but I would give the PHRF rating advantage to the 109.
At 12 knots I would bet that the racing would be extremely close. It may be that the 109 and Psyched would have an upwind advantage using a #2 rather then the #3 the 105 would probably be flying but the boats would both be sailing very close to their PHRF rating. Flying a 110 sq mt kite downwind I would give a slight PHRF advantage to the 105 because she will be able to dig deeper then the other two boats simply because her apparent wind will be further forward. I have to qualify this a bit. I have been on Gerhard's Saga 43 and was amazed as to how deep he could go flying his A-kite. Kudos to Gerhard's helming and Pedro's kite design for that one.
At 18+ knots the upwind racing is again going to be close but there is little question in my mind that the 105 will have a distinct advantage downwind. The 105 will almost constantly be above 10 knots with surfs upwards of 14. Because the apparent wind on the 105 will be further forward (faster SOG) she will also be sailing very close to dead down, certainly at 170 degrees. If there is sufficient weight on the rail she will even be able to do an occasional dead down.
At 24 knots the 105 will be doing 6.8-7.1 upwind and rarely be much less then 12 knots SOG downwind. She will plane in the gust for sure and top speeds of 18+ will be frequent and depending on wave action last a good while. I don't think a single rating number can handle this.
OK, so here is my point. A single number system cannot level out the differences between these three boats. One would need a system that would provide a different number for each wind range. The race committee would have to decide which number is valid for each race in a series. Not sure I would want to be the RC in that setting. As most of you know, I do not have the personality to take much abuse.
Not going to talk about a M32 or Pedro's Pingo. Will let you decide how they would perform in a single number PHRF system.
I also have to agree these discussions are great.
I read through this a bit last night and posted after happy hour ended...
Some more thoughts with a bit more clarity I hope. First of all, I completely agree with Kevin and Marc that the fleets are getting too divided. I also think this is nothing new around here. ...level 70, SOS, Classic class, Club handicap on and on.
The discussions at the PHRF meetings about the sprits and assym started off when a lot of factory cruising boats were being delivered with the selden add on sprit etc. There was not a good rule in place to address this. The closest thing we had was the offsets for an oversized spinnaker pole. ...that didn't make any sense.
The next thing to think about was the typical racer cruiser that wanted the ease or perceived ease of going to an assy on a small sprit to get it out in front of the headstay to make for easier gybes.
The committee also had to address boats like the modified race boats like the ones Kevin Hayes mentioned. In the past modified boats got penalized to the point of not being competetive at all.
Generally speaking the thought process was for the rule and sprit/spinnaker size corrections were to level the playing field between like boats. For instance a Beneteau First 38 with a sprit and one without to be able to race fairly against one another. The modified race boats take a little more thought. I think generally the committee came pretty close to getting the new rule right.
There has been a lot of discussion on how to class these boats on the bay and ultimately that is up to the PRO and not PHRF.
That said, I'm not really in favor of sub-dividing the fleets like GBCA is doing right now. I'm not sure of the best solution ...well actually more boats competing would probably fix everything but outside of that I think simply going back to rating band splits and seeing how things play out would be my suggestion.
Take it from me, who just moved our boat from Texoma to Galveston Bay, it's infinitely MORE FUN to loose to by a few seconds even if the ratings aren't quite fair than it is to have nobody to race against.
I am very concerned that I'm seeing the same trend here as we saw in North Texas. First, everyone stops racing W/Ls in favor of distance races. Then once everyone tires of sailing the boat parades, people just stay at the dock.
Last year we couldn't even race J/Fest because there weren't enough boats for a J/PHRF class??? How's that even possible in a place like Galveston Bay???
Well said J. D. It is definitely more fun to sail in a big fleet and lose then to sail against three boats in a parade. On the other hand I have to admit I am rapidly approaching the stay at the dock age.
Quote from: USA74 on February 22, 2016, 10:05:24 AM
Take it from me, who just moved our boat from Texoma to Galveston Bay, it's infinitely MORE FUN to loose to by a few seconds even if the ratings aren't quite fair than it is to have nobody to race against.
I am very concerned that I'm seeing the same trend here as we saw in North Texas. First, everyone stops racing W/Ls in favor of distance races. Then once everyone tires of sailing the boat parades, people just stay at the dock.
Last year we couldn't even race J/Fest because there weren't enough boats for a J/PHRF class??? How's that even possible in a place like Galveston Bay???
Quote from: Bee on February 22, 2016, 10:36:34 AM
On the other hand I have to admit I am rapidly approaching the stay at the dock age.
That's not going to happen! We'll just bolt your wheel chair to the stern pulpit, strap you in, and let you call tactics.
Quote from: Charles on February 18, 2016, 09:01:33 PM
The GBCA board and Race Captain are just trying to do what we are hearing that the racers want. We have been told that the aftermarket sprit boats think they can't compete with a factory sprit boat, so we have been experimenting with the split fleet to see if participation increases. Also, we have had better participation overall when we offer distance courses to everyone. Maybe everyone is getting old. If anyone has suggestions on how to make our races better, please come to a board meeting with your ideas. We meet the third Tuesday of ever month ;at 7:00PM.
Charles
GBCA Vice Commodore
Where were those "aftermarket sprit" boats for the Icicle series? Maximum participation of 3 boats in ONE race out of five? And I doubt any of those three would have minded at all if they were able to race in a class that included more boats. I would say that experiment has run its course.
If anyone needs crew for Performance Cup this weekend, let me know. I have a couple crew contacts from AYC looking for a ride.
I can agree with this. Its interesting that of the 36 boats currently entered, 20 are "sprit" boats. I am also aware that there are others who don't have sprits but do run A-Kites. It would seem to me that a better approach would be to go back to letting the PRO/RC decide how to break out various classes.
I recently took a look at J-Boats new J/11S https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qApjdjEUIP4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qApjdjEUIP4). This is a J-111 sized boat designed as a short-handed speedster. It does have a short sprit, but surprise, surprise it comes standard with a POLE. Not sure how that works when short handed, but J/Boats line is that running with a symmetric kite reduces the need to gybe and so has more tactical advantages then a more traditional long sprit A-Kite. Who woulda thunk it?
Quote from: ShakenNotStirred on February 22, 2016, 12:03:33 PM
Quote from: Charles on February 18, 2016, 09:01:33 PM
The GBCA board and Race Captain are just trying to do what we are hearing that the racers want. We have been told that the aftermarket sprit boats think they can't compete with a factory sprit boat, so we have been experimenting with the split fleet to see if participation increases. Also, we have had better participation overall when we offer distance courses to everyone. Maybe everyone is getting old. If anyone has suggestions on how to make our races better, please come to a board meeting with your ideas. We meet the third Tuesday of ever month ;at 7:00PM.
Charles
GBCA Vice Commodore
Where were those "aftermarket sprit" boats for the Icicle series? Maximum participation of 3 boats in ONE race out of five? And I doubt any of those three would have minded at all if they were able to race in a class that included more boats. I would say that experiment has run its course.
The 3 boat one design class (J109) this weekend is exactly what I've been talking about in regards to class splits. There could be a great class A with the 122, c&c115 and 3 J109s. Then have the rest of the boats Melges 24, J-80, j-92s, J-70 and Pingo in Class B. I would also add in the Ben 25 (which is another reason not to split the "factory vs non factory sprits". When was the last time you saw 8 boats in a under 30' class with all relatively similiar design on GB?
Where will the class split be if the 109s have there own class? It's not fair racing for either end of the spectrum in the PHRF group. I never recall sitting in a PHRF committee meeting and someone on the board ask "how well will a J-122 sail against a J-80"? PHRF works with similiar boats of similiar size.
Just my thoughts!
In support of what Kevin is saying; the bene. 25 is not going to race this weekend because we have been moved to the distance class.
You guys have a good weekend.
The easiest thing for a race committee is a lot of entries. Why don't the 109's and 105's form one class? Race Committees try to divide classes into most like boats; maybe we separate too much. But, the rating band becomes too great. For the Spin W/L, we range from 33 to 120. This is about like the fairness of a pursuit race. I have had people argue with me on where the after-market sprit boats should race. This is a very tough call for race committee. I can only hope for a day with an increasing wind. I would have preferred to sail a distance course this weekend.
How do we get more boats? I don't know the secret, but it's somehow catering to one-design and pursuit style racing.
There was no reason - as far as PHRFGB aftermarket sprit rating - that the Beneteau 25 should not be allowed to race a W/L format with the "factory sprit" boats. It was not the intend of the "retro sprit" to segregate the boats to racing only against each other.
The 105's had six boats sign up for this regatta. Seems like enough for their own class to me.
Quote from: STuma on March 18, 2016, 11:28:29 PM
The easiest thing for a race committee is a lot of entries. Why don't the 109's and 105's form one class? Race Committees try to divide classes into most like boats; maybe we separate too much. But, the rating band becomes too great. For the Spin W/L, we range from 33 to 120. This is about like the fairness of a pursuit race. I have had people argue with me on where the after-market sprit boats should race. This is a very tough call for race committee. I can only hope for a day with an increasing wind. I would have preferred to sail a distance course this weekend.
How do we get more boats? I don't know the secret, but it's somehow catering to one-design and pursuit style racing.
Big thanks to all the GBCA PRO, RC, and volunteers for trying to set up the course today. You guys rock.
Stinger saw a 33 knot gust with fairly steady 27 knot winds. Was going to be a destroy something day.
Quote from: hayesrigging on March 17, 2016, 08:17:43 PM
The 3 boat one design class (J109) this weekend is exactly what I've been talking about in regards to class splits. There could be a great class A with the 122, c&c115 and 3 J109s. Then have the rest of the boats Melges 24, J-80, j-92s, J-70 and Pingo in Class B. I would also add in the Ben 25 (which is another reason not to split the "factory vs non factory sprits". When was the last time you saw 8 boats in a under 30' class with all relatively similiar design on GB?
Where will the class split be if the 109s have there own class? It's not fair racing for either end of the spectrum in the PHRF group. I never recall sitting in a PHRF committee meeting and someone on the board ask "how well will a J-122 sail against a J-80"? PHRF works with similiar boats of similiar size.
Just my thoughts!
I've been listening to this thread for a while. Kevin, you may have hit the nail on the head! "PHRF works with similar boats of similar size." We all know that conditions affect boats of similar size in a similar way. Boats under 30' (arbitrary length split...) react similarly in wind and chop - big puffs overpower all boats and the all need to depower, short Galveston Bay chop is a challenge to drive for all. Boats over 30' all benefit in light air from the small puffs aloft that the smaller boats can't reach and the larger boats can power through the chop much better than the smaller boats.
What caught my attention was the last sentence
"PHRF works with similar boats of similar size". What about making the fleet splits more in line with boatlength vs. PHRF numbers? Sure, you may get some broad handicap number splits. But, if the wind and waves affect similar sized boats similarly, then their respective PHRF handicap should even out the differences. In other words - SIZE MATTERS:-)
Caveat to the above - I don't want to enter the fray with regard to sym vs. asym or sprit vs. pole vs. factory-after-market-retrofit-sprit.
Thoughts???
Brian I agree. In many cases the size of boat and rating go hand in hand but there are some cases where boat type should over rule the rating in determining the class splits. I think the Ben 25 not being able to race in a w/l class this weekend is the start of a big problem that we have. This is the premiere GBCA w/l race of the year and the Ben 25 is no doubt a race boat. They wanted to race w/l and were automatically put in the distance class cause they are an aftermarket sprit.
I believe until we hear from more boat owners or regatta organizers on this topic I am afraid nothing is changing.
In the conundrum maybe Psyched will be in the "symmetrical home built class"?
While I pretty much agree with Kevin's and similar statements, as a factory sprit boat owner, I really don't care where you put Stinger. I just want to sail as much as I can. As you guys know I enter just about everything. I win some and I lose some. I may not be all that good at it but I definitely like to win and I am pretty sure that is a universal sentiment. I do believe the main reason these various "classes" were created was to increase participation by increasing the chances for successful participation by more boats. When a hand full of boats consistently win at the expense of the rest of the fleet its easy for some to get discouraged and drop out. I am aware of at least one OD fleet that saw diminished participation because one or two boats always dominated everything. I guess I advocate erring on the side of doing whatever we can to increase participation. We may have gone too far here, but its fairly early in the game.
Quote from: hayesrigging on March 22, 2016, 09:24:38 PM
Brian I agree. In many cases the size of boat and rating go hand in hand but there are some cases where boat type should over rule the rating in determining the class splits. I think the Ben 25 not being able to race in a w/l class this weekend is the start of a big problem that we have. This is the premiere GBCA w/l race of the year and the Ben 25 is no doubt a race boat. They wanted to race w/l and were automatically put in the distance class cause they are an aftermarket sprit.
I believe until we hear from more boat owners or regatta organizers on this topic I am afraid nothing is changing.
In the conundrum maybe Psyched will be in the "symmetrical home built class"?
Quote from: hayesrigging on March 22, 2016, 09:24:38 PM
Brian I agree. In many cases the size of boat and rating go hand in hand but there are some cases where boat type should over rule the rating in determining the class splits. I think the Ben 25 not being able to race in a w/l class this weekend is the start of a big problem that we have. This is the premiere GBCA w/l race of the year and the Ben 25 is no doubt a race boat. They wanted to race w/l and were automatically put in the distance class cause they are an aftermarket sprit.
I believe until we hear from more boat owners or regatta organizers on this topic I am afraid nothing is changing.
In the conundrum maybe Psyched will be in the "symmetrical home built class"?
I'd be interested in what owners / racers / crew / peanut-gallery think about forming classes with boat size as well as handicap in mind.
What's the prevailing opinions on mixing sprit boats with pole boats (I'm not EVEN going near the factory-after-market-owner-installed-semi-sprit-thing) of similar size and handicap?
I do not have a clue as to how to even try to make a decent recommendation. Its just too complicated. The technological differences are too great. Hull shapes are different and so are rig designs. Even the current Kites on Stinger are a far cry from the original designs.
The only thing I have observed is that a lot of symmetric boats have converted to and are flying A-kites with or without sprits. I can tell you that when we started racing Stinger, we couldn't beat a well paddled rowboat. I think we have learned a lot over the years, but we are still far from perfect. I suspect the "converters" will have a similar learning curve.
It probably would be reasonable to form classes based on similar boat sizes and PHRF numbers, but exactly what does that mean. Is if fair to put a 36', 9000# J111 in the same class as a much older 36' 36,000# symmetric? I wish I knew.
Rather then try to make all these boats fit a single PHRF number based on a lot of guess work, we might be much better off to move toward something like ORC and use it as fairly as we can. At least ORC is based on a possibly more accurate VPP.
Quote from: BJSailor on March 24, 2016, 09:36:46 AM
I'd be interested in what owners / racers / crew / peanut-gallery think about forming classes with boat size as well as handicap in mind.
What's the prevailing opinions on mixing sprit boats with pole boats (I'm not EVEN going near the factory-after-market-owner-installed-semi-sprit-thing) of similar size and handicap?