Clubs in the Bay area need to seriously consider splitting the PHRF Spin fleet into A & B fleets. Having raced three different small boats in the Galveston Bay area, always in PHRF Spin A Fleet, the match up simply doesn't work for the little guy. By the time we've beat our way to the first weather mark, our ToD differential has evaporated. The Shoe was a good example. Leading up to the weekend of the race, registration showed 10 boats in PHRF Spin, 5 under 30' and 5 over 30'. Lumped together, one of the smaller boats dropped out before the event. The rest of us could only watch the big guys horizon us. While the PHRF numbers are fair and square, the delta is simply too large to compete, usually. Since most fleets need only three to form a class, no reason not to have a PHRF A & B. We might see more of the smaller PHRF orphans return to the race course if they believed they could be competitive. PROs could simply score PHRF A & B separately, and keep them on the same start/finish sequence.
Sincerely,
PHRF Hack
Thanks for starting this thread, I agree wholeheartedly. U20 and J122 in the same class????? Who is going to have dirty air throughout the race? No chance for the little boats.
Although Mojo figured it out.....great sailing guys and girl.
Billy
Your telling me that on an off the wind course a U20, or M24, or J70 that planes at 12 knots doesn't have a chance against the J122?
Tell you what, if you believe that, I have this wonderful house in Phoenix which has a beautiful view of the Sierra Madres and the Pacific. Please contact me immediately these quarters go really quickly .....
Hee Hee.
OOPS. Was thinking Rum Races. Even at that a well sails little boat like an M24, J70, or Viper should not have much trouble against the big guys. When it comes to W/L the down wind leg usually belongs to the fireflies while the upwind leg belongs to the big boys. If your sailing a 27 symmetric against a J122 a-Kite then I agree its kinda unfair.
Someone at LYC gotta the actual Shoe results with minutes shown? Bet is way more than you think.
It's actually pretty close in a lot of races. I really enjoyed it. If you click on the race number you can see the detail.
As far as dirty air your better off in a class with a big phrf margin that 10-15 sec!! The 122 is almost 2 kts faster than the 24 upwind so your not in dirty air long!!!
The interesting thing is 2 of the top 3 in the phrf fleet were small boats.
Small boats were 2 of top 4. My bad. But very close racing in almost every race. I think its actually quite impressive on how close it was.
Didn't seem that close as we limped back to port with a broken rudder gudgeon in the 2nd race Sunday. Exilerating, but exhausting trying to keep 1200# of boat upright in those breezes while slamming into chop. The M24s are more resilient than the U20 and other PHRF B boats and I still think a numeric fleet split for scoring purposes might attract more boats under 30' back into the pack.
Hey. It's me, your whiny :o PHRF slacker again. Check out the Leukemia Kup PHRF registrations so far
1. Ken Womack
Texas Corinthian Yacht Club 35037 Revolution PHRF Spinnaker / Carroll Marine / 1D35 36
2. Dmitriy Yegorov
HYC 23540 Aravaca PHRF Spinnaker / / J-24 172
Still don't think we need a separate A & B fleets? These boats are 2 minutes, 16 seconds per mile apart ???. That's 10 minutes in a typical 4 leg 1.2nm course. Perhaps we would be seeing more registration action if the fleet were split into A & B. It could be accomplished mathematically without necessitating separate start/finishes.
Quote from: sailfastliveslow on June 11, 2013, 03:50:47 PM
Hey. It's me, your whiny :o PHRF slacker again. Check out the Leukemia Kup PHRF registrations so far
1. Ken Womack
Texas Corinthian Yacht Club 35037 Revolution PHRF Spinnaker / Carroll Marine / 1D35 36
2. Dmitriy Yegorov
HYC 23540 Aravaca PHRF Spinnaker / / J-24 172
Still don't think we need a separate A & B fleets? These boats are 2 minutes, 16 seconds per mile apart ???. That's 10 minutes in a typical 4 leg 1.2nm course. Perhaps we would be seeing more registration action if the fleet were split into A & B. It could be accomplished mathematically without necessitating separate start/finishes.
You first have to satisfy the "minimum of three yachts of the same design will constitute a fleet" requirement of the NOR. So far these are the only two registered in PHRF spin. Will need six or more registered before you can start splitting and maintain the 'minimum of three yachts' per class. Even then you may not get reasonable bands to split.
We used to split PHRF along PHRF bands or size or sprit/nonsprit back when we used to have enough boats to split into ample size classes. Every year, there are fewer and fewer PHRF boats as more people are going to one-design.
Nothing personal Ken, Chuck, Fred... But with the handicap that Revolution has, an even moderately capable J/24 should correct out ahead. That OD35 is very tough to sail to its numbers.
One thing that catches my attention is the desire for many sailors to accept winning a pickle dish (even for second place) in a three boat fleet. Doesn't it matter more if you win a third place award in a 12 boat fleet? Doesn't it bother folks to see 3 boat fleets for PHRF A Spin, PHRF B Spin, PHRF Sprit, PHRF "dirty-bottoms", etc... I fully understand the frequent handicap number disparity, but isn't it more interesting / exciting / meaningful if there are 12 boats in your start / fleet? I look at the chatter from the rum / icicle races and I see bunches of spin boats (non-spin and Club Handicap too) enthusiastic about racing against / with a ton of boats - there is competition there!!!
It does matter and it depends. If you're the one winning the hardware in the fleet, OK. If not, it's a problem ;D. You have no idea how scary it is to line up your #1100 20 footer against a 1D-35 charging the line at 8 knots. Like all PHRF whiners, I'd like a gold star just for showing up. :D
When I raced in PHRF (1997-2003) splitting the PHRF fleet was the norm. At that time it was not unusual for 10+ PHRF spin boats to sign up and race. I even saw splits into A, B, and C.
Looking at the current list one sees that there are actually 8 spin boats entered. Six are in the Pursuit division and 2 in the W/L division. I cannot see how to spilt a 2 boat division, but with 6, the Pursuit boats have enough if the participants are OK with it. I have never seen it happen.
The PHRF numbers in the Pursuit bunch range from 33 to 213 with only 2 (33 and 78) close enough together to warrant a split. If you put the Pursuit and W/L together you could conceivably split them into A with 3 and B with 5. If you put all the spin boats (including the J105, J80, J109, ... ) together you would have a big enough bunch to make a nice split but these guys bought their boats because they did not want to run PHRF so whenever a three boat fleet forms they will never be willing to go PHRF.
What's really happened here is the evolution of sailing technology. Boats like an M24 (Mojo for example), J70's, Vipers, and the rest of the bigger sprit boats have more or less revolutionize sailing by making everything easier and more fun to do. Even worse, those that plane are very difficult if not impossible to handicap accurately. As more and more of the local sailors switched to these boats the big PHRF fleets began to decrease in size. Its this decrease that has create the strange PHRF mixes we sail under today. If you can get the entries back up to past levels, local clubs will have little problem doing the split.
I would like to see the clubs up the minimum for a one design class to at least 4 maybe even 5. Three boats is not enough to have fun racing in a seperate class in my opinion. Maybe have a sub class for the three one designs within the class. It would help the RCs be able to have competitive classes. We had three Melges 24s for the shoe and I did not want to be separated out. I would rather race against 7-8 PHRF boats then by ourselves with 3.
Definitely the move towards one design is hurting the PHRF fleets. Maybe we should have one or two regattas a year that are PHRF only with no one design???? That would be interesting.
I don't disagree with anything you say Kevin, but I suspect your suggestion of putting them all together will result in some, perhaps not so nice, discussion between the symmetric and asymmetric girls. One need look no further then the current sprit-non sprit split in the Rum Races.
I have heard a lot of "discussion" implying that girls with sprits are more PHRF potent then spritless girls. Bottom line opinion is that they should not race in the same class. There are similar discussion relative to Melges, Vipers, J70's, Shaw 650's, when compared to bigger sprits like 105's, 109's, 80's, and such. The smaller boats plane, the bigger ones don't. Planing is a potent weapon and very difficult to handicap.
What we really need are more boats on the line. When that is the case the issue pretty much goes away. I wish I new how to get more boats out but the future does not look good.
If it comes to the point where we only race PHRF again, I think I will pass.
Well, getting more boats on the line (PHRF or 1D) was why I even started the thread. Well managed PHRF values and close(ish) rating bands leads to (almost as good as) one design racing. When the PHRF spread approach a minute or more a mile, it gets difficult for the little boys to keep up. Couple recommendations:
1. Consider using Time on Time (ToT), instead of Time on Distance (ToD). ToT is generally recognized as superior in that it can take into account small boats getting stuck in dying breeze well after the biggies have finished, etc.
2. Keep a single start for A & B fleets, just score them separately. You get the illusion of bigger fleets with enough gold stars & blue ribbons to make us ALL fill better about spending our time & money to get out on the H2O.
Cordially,
Whinny Little PHRF Hacker
Bee,
As you know it's been quite a while since I visited. So I have enjoyed seeing this discussion, but saddened by the reduction in the fleet entries, And I well remember the Santana 30 and you and Bondi Tram at the start line having this similar discussion.Bondi was brought from the Left Coast as a MORC Maxi from the 90's and then spent 4 months in the yard getting optimized for Galveston Bay. Rating went from 105 (had that for 10 years nationally) to 93. But that was probably due to a carbon fiber revolution that went on for the rudder, tiller, spin pole, sails, etc. Eventually, went to 96. But in conditions under 12 knots, it would horizon the A fleet on upwind legs. And if under 5 knots, as some remember in a TORC, it would just walk away from the 44's and high end 38's (Always thought those kids from A&M should have been boat of the day for last 2 days, but that is another story). And wen locked in and balanced, you could just let go of the tiller in flat water let the boat sail itself. And what most never found out was that the boat (a 30' footer) drew 7' with a bulb on the keel and a 6' offset rudder. Damn thing drove like a semi though, lol.
And boat prep always was for the best running rigging, bottom prep (600 wet dry), and all carbon blocks.
Objective was, "if you are going to make the rating against the big boys, you better be ready to take advantage of every minute performance advantage.
For background the boat is a one-off Andrews 30 that was purpose built for upwind angle and speed and needed 12 -15 downwind for deep and by the lee angles to reduce distance against the A fleet speed based on length. We would just sail by the lee and got a bit of a reputation for pole-less spin take-downs to work the inside at the mark and be on upwind earlier than the A guys. (you can do that with college sailors, so invite the Galveston sailors, they were always great to have on the boat).
Had our share of 1, 2, & 3's, and the best an all A&M at Galveston Team 1rst in an Ellisa Regatta (with a busted traveler), with me just following in a power boat taking pictures. But something happened, due to the college sailors, and great group of friends, Andrew McInnis (of Banks Sails at the time), John Maudlin and son, and Scott Tuma, the sailing excellence on the course became paramount. Not our overall position in the final results. We became our biggest critics.
Many people wondered why the boats crew did not make the after race parties at the respective clubs. Simple, Mrs. Tammy our boat manager and woman extraordinaire would have a dock party set up for us when we arrived and demanded a breakdown of the race. And that is where the magic happened...... we just loved the experience of sailing together and sailing the suicide machine the best that we could.
Oh, and a tight race for best racing experience....John Maudlin getting 2 seconds on day one of the NOOD and his son, Nick, getting 3 firsts the next 2 days for our class win. (We fired John.....lol). And Nick and Dad at LYC, together, accepting the first place prize. First time Nick had driven a keel boat, and first time with Dad in the back. First time Marla got to see husband and son on the podium together.
It's tough to compete in the A class, "if it was easy everybody could do it". And most of the time the conditions won't favor the smaller boats. But somewhere in our 8 years racing together, we found something above the results......
And if I could turn back the clock...I would do it all over, just the same way.
Don't sweat the results.....there is something about racing a boat to it's potential that has its own value, and I a damn glad that, Doug, Bruce, Tammy, Chris, James, Peter, Dan, Scott, Andrew, John (the homeless duded on the dock), Nick, Marla, Greg, the whole Texas A&M at Galveston sailors, Christina and the women's regatta team members had the patience to put up with the bunch at the back in fantasy land.
Boat is just taking up space at the dock now...I am done...But if there is a group with a vision out there, that would put in the work, and would like to sail on the edge......I just might be willing to give her to you....
Clark Hull
Great post Clark. As usual well thought out and spot on. I remember sticking with you all the way back from one of the Offshore races. Sorry, but I don't remember which. Just you and that 30. I was concerned that if something happened you just might need some assistance.
I particularly like the comment relative to boat prep. Vic Forsyth pretty much taught me all I know about sailing. One of his favorite comments went something like "you start loosing points at the dock." Fundamentally boat prep, including sails, rigging, and just about everything else one can think of has to be a major focus. Given 100 points for perfect prep, you really do start loosing points at the dock. Top notch sails and a crew that just does what needs to be done when it needs to be done are also necessary. Its really a team sport after all. Maybe the most important thing and maybe the hardest is to avoid indecision during the race. Good or bad, quick decisions are the way to go. You can always recover when you recognize you mistake.
I read somewhere that a winning campaign for even the little boats (J70 and the like) can cost around 70K+/year. That does not include the cost of the boat. It ain't easy being green. If your ultimate goal is to be first every race (I admit having that kind of goal in the past) you are probably going to be a bit disappointed, but given enough green you can probably achieve something close. I am pretty much past that now but I still like wining. Its always nice to come in first. Nevertheless that pickle dish is not going to be around when your gone so its better to just go out and have some fun.
The more I think about it the more I realize that not many people want to blow the kind of green necessary to sail the boat at its rating. I know I didn't when I owned the 3030. However, sailing with great equipment is a joy. I like my new sails and everything else. For me its the only way to go.
I don't understand Kevin Hayes belief that fleets should have at least 4 boats. Sailing a 105 against even just one other 105 (match racing) is a hell of a lot of fun. Uzi and I do this in every Rum Race and we trade off winning all the time. Its very exciting to come in within a few seconds of each other at the finish. It is certainly more fun when there are 4 or 5 or more out there but the excitement is still greatest when you are directly competing against just one other boat. The great thing about OD is that you have to learn how to sail the boat above its potential to beat the guy next to you and you have to be able to do that with just a few seconds of separation.
Beyond boat prep, sails, and other such things, sailboat racing is basically a head trip. And that for me is fun.