Our new boat, a Schumacher 28, is on it's way to Texas today. It will spend a few weeks in our driveway in Austin getting a little love and a fixed sprit, then we'll bring her down to Seabrook for the winter. Looking forward to getting back out on the Bay.
(http://newimages.yachtworld.com/resize/1/5/39/4720539_20140527102405346_1_XLARGE.jpg?f=/1/5/39/4720539_20140527102405346_1_XLARGE.jpg&w=606&h=467&t=1401215234000)
Cool. Fixed sprit? Seems like a good thing to do.
Yep. It will only be about 3.5' long. Any longer and chute gets too short and wide. At that length it doesn't seem necessary to mess with a retractable sprit.
Fixed bow sprits have been tried on many boats because of the easy spinnaker handling. Unless your boat will get up and go (on a real plane) then you will probably not see the full benefit of having PHRF hit you. An articulating standard or oversize spinnaker pole will reap huge benefits when going downwind with an Ayso compared to a fix sprit. Have seen this tried on 1D35's and lot's of other similar boats.
Nice to see a new addition to the Texas sailing though good luck!
Quote from: Keith on September 09, 2014, 04:38:48 PM
Fixed bow sprits have been tried on many boats because of the easy spinnaker handling. Unless your boat will get up and go (on a real plane) then you will probably not see the full benefit of having PHRF hit you. An articulating standard or oversize spinnaker pole will reap huge benefits when going downwind with an Ayso compared to a fix sprit. Have seen this tried on 1D35's and lot's of other similar boats.
Nice to see a new addition to the Texas sailing though good luck!
The PHRF committee has been wrestling with this for a year or so. Take a look at March 2014 minutes at the PHRFGB.com site for current no penalty parameters for converting from symmetrical to sprit.
There is no penalty nor should there be for converting from Sym to Ayso. But to add a 3 foot bowsprit and extend your SPL length (effectively that is what you are doing) is another story. Projecting a spinnaker 3 feet (or whatever) further in front of the bow will always, or should always require a penalty. It you put a bowsprit that matches your existing SPL length then no penalty. We did that on a Beneteau First 40 to Hawaii and used it for the Code 0, to set the ayso from and also for gybing. Immediately after we set a spinnaker (4A for example) we articulated the ayso away from the bow.
2 days out of Hawaii a 1D35 with a large fixed bowsprit and owing us 11 hours crossed our stern pointing towards Tahiti because that is the angle she needed to sail because of her configuration (We beat her boat for boat by 3 hours). BUT that being said... Bruce Nelson ran the numbers on a 1D35 for a friend of mine who did Transpac double handed and he said that both configurations are close but he gives the advantage to the bowsprit on a long distance race. It would be hard in my opinion to sail the angles needed with a bowsprit on a W/L race.... Depends on what your desire is.
I have raced against a modified 1D35 a lot.. many times on a Flying Tiger. Here is Misfit VS us in a San Diego to Ensenada race.
(http://da-woody.com/11N2EStart/11N2EStart0801.JPG)
Interesting comments. Thanks.
Two points...
The configuration is intended to be optimized for racing to Hawaii. We are consulting with Jim Antrim, who runs the downwind PHRF derived rating that Pac Cup uses. I suspect the sprit will win, but if Jim says no, then we might not go that route.
Regarding ratings though. This is a one-off boat with no previous rating so there aren't really any credits or penalties because there is no base rating.
In the end I really don't care that much about the rating. We are out to have fun on the boat. Winning (or even coming close) is secondary.
Justin and Chris:
Just make sure you two have fun and don't worry about the rest of our comments. Keith is an old buddy and means well here but he is a full bore all out professional racer. Like me, has trouble understanding more long distance cruiser oriented types (even though he has done a bunch of these). Just keep Chris smiling and those of us who keep up with you two will be happy. Still enjoying her Hawaii videos. What a wonderful smile.
OK Bee! Only two more to go...
You bring up a couple of interesting points below and also to confirm, there is no penalty for either converting from sym to aysm or using both. PHRFGB allows the use of both.
In trying to address the popularity of these mini-sprits and the production boats offering them as an option (mostly the cruisers). The committee tried to come up with a no penalty rule for converting to a small sprit (20% of J) and a larger assym. -in this configuration a conventional symmetrical on a pole is not allowed, nor can the sprit articulate.
You mentioned rotating the assym to windward. In the PHRF region you were racing were you allowed both assym and sym spinnakers?
Quote from: Keith on September 11, 2014, 10:55:44 AM
There is no penalty nor should there be for converting from Sym to Ayso. But to add a 3 foot bowsprit and extend your SPL length (effectively that is what you are doing) is another story. Projecting a spinnaker 3 feet (or whatever) further in front of the bow will always, or should always require a penalty. It you put a bowsprit that matches your existing SPL length then no penalty. We did that on a Beneteau First 40 to Hawaii and used it for the Code 0, to set the ayso from and also for gybing. Immediately after we set a spinnaker (4A for example) we articulated the ayso away from the bow.
2 days out of Hawaii a 1D35 with a large fixed bowsprit and owing us 11 hours crossed our stern pointing towards Tahiti because that is the angle she needed to sail because of her configuration (We beat her boat for boat by 3 hours). BUT that being said... Bruce Nelson ran the numbers on a 1D35 for a friend of mine who did Transpac double handed and he said that both configurations are close but he gives the advantage to the bowsprit on a long distance race. It would be hard in my opinion to sail the angles needed with a bowsprit on a W/L race.... Depends on what your desire is.
Assuming you are going double handed again? Using a Pole will be safer for short handed sailing. You will get the spinnaker away from the main and have less opportunities to collapse the spinnaker especially when surfing down waves and you get really deep.
My co-worker has down a few double handed Transpacs and we have a lot of info for the 1D35, J92 and now the possibility of double handed J-125 to Hawaii!
Quote from: svShearwater on September 11, 2014, 02:07:24 PM
Interesting comments. Thanks.
Two points...
The configuration is intended to be optimized for racing to Hawaii. We are consulting with Jim Antrim, who runs the downwind PHRF derived rating that Pac Cup uses. I suspect the sprit will win, but if Jim says no, then we might not go that route.
Regarding ratings though. This is a one-off boat with no previous rating so there aren't really any credits or penalties because there is no base rating.
In the end I really don't care that much about the rating. We are out to have fun on the boat. Winning (or even coming close) is secondary.
I have always admired how GBCA get's the most out of rating and boats to ensure the biggest turnout. After doing the HMR a few times I decided to bring some of the practices to the Newport To Ensenada Race and everyone has been receptive.
In PHRF Southern California there is no penalty to switch between Ayso and Symmetrical. SOme boats us Symmetrical for W/L here and ayso for reaching.
Quote from: JayZ on September 12, 2014, 12:05:36 PM
You bring up a couple of interesting points below and also to confirm, there is no penalty for either converting from sym to aysm or using both. PHRFGB allows the use of both.
In trying to address the popularity of these mini-sprits and the production boats offering them as an option (mostly the cruisers). The committee tried to come up with a no penalty rule for converting to a small sprit (20% of J) and a larger assym. -in this configuration a conventional symmetrical on a pole is not allowed, nor can the sprit articulate.
You mentioned rotating the assym to windward. In the PHRF region you were racing were you allowed both assym and sym spinnakers?
Quote from: Keith on September 11, 2014, 10:55:44 AM
There is no penalty nor should there be for converting from Sym to Ayso. But to add a 3 foot bowsprit and extend your SPL length (effectively that is what you are doing) is another story. Projecting a spinnaker 3 feet (or whatever) further in front of the bow will always, or should always require a penalty. It you put a bowsprit that matches your existing SPL length then no penalty. We did that on a Beneteau First 40 to Hawaii and used it for the Code 0, to set the ayso from and also for gybing. Immediately after we set a spinnaker (4A for example) we articulated the ayso away from the bow.
2 days out of Hawaii a 1D35 with a large fixed bowsprit and owing us 11 hours crossed our stern pointing towards Tahiti because that is the angle she needed to sail because of her configuration (We beat her boat for boat by 3 hours). BUT that being said... Bruce Nelson ran the numbers on a 1D35 for a friend of mine who did Transpac double handed and he said that both configurations are close but he gives the advantage to the bowsprit on a long distance race. It would be hard in my opinion to sail the angles needed with a bowsprit on a W/L race.... Depends on what your desire is.
Cool. A NO penalty rule. So, if I set up Stinger to fly a sym (very easy to do) I won't be penalized, but I bet I will hear a lot of bitching.
OK, Ed. Solo uno mas.
not quite in the spirit of the rule. ...actually not really close at all.
Quote from: Bee on September 15, 2014, 03:05:48 PM
Cool. A NO penalty rule. So, if I set up Stinger to fly a sym (very easy to do) I won't be penalized, but I bet I will hear a lot of bitching.
OK, Ed. Solo uno mas.
Sorry Jay, was just being my usual sarcastic self. No harm intended, just a weird sense of humor. I would never put a pole on Stinker. I wouldn't know how to drive under one and I doubt it would give her much of an advantage. I think you PHRF guys do a good and most likely thankless job, so THANKS.
If you put a standard J length pole and a sym spinnaker sized to that pole I wouldn't think you would get much of a penalty if any. Yes you can square the pole, but the spin would be about 50% smaller. Not an obvious advantage.
I know for Pac Cup a guy limited the length of his sprit on his J/92 by 3' and ran an equivalent length spin pole as well. His rating didn't change. The articulation advantage was offset by the shorter sprit.
We just realized a logistical issue that makes the fixed sprit more difficult. The trailer would interfere. Now thinking more along the lines of a J+2' pole and flying both symmetrical and asymmetricals off the pole. I'm a fan of sprits, but there are a number of good reasons to go with a pole.
Keith, yes, DH again. I know exactly what you mean about the kite collapsing and that is a definite reason to go with a pole.
Quote from: Bee on September 15, 2014, 07:30:45 PM
Sorry Jay, was just being my usual sarcastic self. No harm intended, just a weird sense of humor. I would never put a pole on Stinker. I wouldn't know how to drive under one and I doubt it would give her much of an advantage. I think you PHRF guys do a good and most likely thankless job, so THANKS.
Bee, no worries. I caught the sarcasm. Just slapping ya back a bit.
I raced to Hawaii with Frediie Courable who was on NAOS (Thirsty 30) an am good friends with him. He broke down the last two DH Transpacs and they really changed thier style from the first to the second. Their spinnaker selection and inventory was interesting and seemed to work really well when the breeze came on.
Freddie is designing a small bowsprit for a customer of mine who I am setting up for Transpac. The guy will use it to fly the Code 0 from and then launch his Ayso's before transferring to the pole.
Quote from: svShearwater on September 15, 2014, 08:25:43 PM
If you put a standard J length pole and a sym spinnaker sized to that pole I wouldn't think you would get much of a penalty if any. Yes you can square the pole, but the spin would be about 50% smaller. Not an obvious advantage.
I know for Pac Cup a guy limited the length of his sprit on his J/92 by 3' and ran an equivalent length spin pole as well. His rating didn't change. The articulation advantage was offset by the shorter sprit.
We just realized a logistical issue that makes the fixed sprit more difficult. The trailer would interfere. Now thinking more along the lines of a J+2' pole and flying both symmetrical and asymmetricals off the pole. I'm a fan of sprits, but there are a number of good reasons to go with a pole.
Keith, yes, DH again. I know exactly what you mean about the kite collapsing and that is a definite reason to go with a pole.
We talked to Fred and Charles a bunch after the race in Hawaii. They definitely figured out how to make a 30' 8000 pound boat go fast downhill.
As I understand it they used smaller asym kites and a larger than typical staysail (free sail area). He was talking about using even smaller kites next time. Charles was also talking about replacing the keel and carbon rig too, so who knows what they'll actually end up with.
Quote from: svShearwater on September 17, 2014, 12:39:18 PM
We talked to Fred and Charles a bunch after the race in Hawaii. They definitely figured out how to make a 30' 8000 pound boat go fast downhill.
As I understand it they used smaller asym kites and a larger than typical staysail (free sail area). He was talking about using even smaller kites next time. Charles was also talking about replacing the keel and carbon rig too, so who knows what they'll actually end up with.
Old Charlie! When I did T-Pac with him he brought the best wine.
Freddie and I have been going smaller with the spinnakers for a few years now. Efficiency wins out over size in my book. The went with the Symmetrical spinnakers for heavy air, safer for short handed sailing when surfing at top speeds. I would not put those mods past Charlie, when he does something he does it right and all the way... wish more boat owners that want to go offshore took his lead.
Very interesting topic. Short handed offshore requires a whole different set of parameters. I agree that smaller kites are more beneficial short handed. The way I view it is compete in an Ironman, then try to wrestle a chute short handed. That I'm aware of, my dad still holds the Shorthanded record from Galveston to St. Pete. It would be interesting to get more Shorthanded offshore sailing.
Please keep us up to date.
Cheers...
Scott
Something to clarify on asym and sym chutes... If a boat uses a asym & a sym chute, both off the spin pole and built to PHRF dimensions, there is no penalty and either can be used. Also with zero penalty, is if someone uses an asym and tacked beyond J, there are limitations (stated in the March minutes) with pole length, luff length, girth and sail usage. I think one of the most critical limitations is that with this set-up, only the asym can be used. Using the sym and asym chutes is not allowed. Using both in this set-up would be best of both worlds, and acquiring no penalty would not be fair. But, if a boat uses a asym beyond the 20%J, the rating will have to be evaluated by the committee on a one-on-one basis. Each boat reacts differently with the addition of downwind sail area, therefore a standard factor is not feasible. I think viable GPS data should be submitted to the committee for evaluation of the benefit of the long pole and large chute.
If a asym on a sprit is used with a sym chute, the rating will be altered.
Cheers...
Scott
Small is relative. And regardless of where we end up, you are hard pressed to find a boat with a smaller spinnaker for sailing to Hawaii (Moore 24 and Express 27 are the only that come to mind). For reference depending on how a big a spinnaker we end up with it will be somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 the size of the kites we used on our J/120 to Hawaii this year. A bit of a handkerchief by comparison. :)
Shorthanded offshore in TX? Well, Harvest Moon won't allow it due to unlit oil rigs, or so I'm told. We tried...
Quote from: STuma on September 18, 2014, 06:23:31 PM
Very interesting topic. Short handed offshore requires a whole different set of parameters. I agree that smaller kites are more beneficial short handed. The way I view it is compete in an Ironman, then try to wrestle a chute short handed. That I'm aware of, my dad still holds the Shorthanded record from Galveston to St. Pete. It would be interesting to get more Shorthanded offshore sailing.
Please keep us up to date.
Cheers...
Scott
Looks like a really neat ride. 3,000 pounds. 28 feet. I assume 4'3 draft to get you out of the slip in winter, 6' 3 to sail. Sweet!
Quote from: svShearwater on September 19, 2014, 01:39:37 PM
Shorthanded offshore in TX? Well, Harvest Moon won't allow it due to unlit oil rigs, or so I'm told. We tried...
Race to the Border (http://www.racetotheborder.com) (Galveston to South Padre) has had a short-handed division since its inception. Looking forward to it in 2015.
Thanks for the reminder Walter. I had forgotten about that race. I like it. We've put it on the calendar for 2015. It will just depend on how quickly we can get the Cat 3 requirements sorted on the new boat.