How about you Cruising Class A Kite flyers move to the Spinnaker A Kite Bow class? Let try and make it a transition out of Cruising Class. It will be more competitive for us and for the non asym flyers in the Cruising Class.
That sounds like good idea, time to take off the training wheels!
I don't have a problem with adding another class. It means more rum at the parties. Now here is a counter. I don't remember what prompted me to look up the different PHRF ratings, but I found discrepancies in some of the boats. What I found was, some boats are given a Cruising Class rating almost twice what there PHRF rating is / should be. I don't mind that, if it gets more boats out, increases the crew pool, and people are having fun.
Now, if you want to take the training wheels off, start using the PHRF vs Cruising Class.
AND if you really want to kick off the training wheels get a J-22!!
The class already exists. It was Firewater and one or two others for the 2019 Icicles. I'm thinking of moving and this move seemed logical. I'm trying to get more boats to make it more fun
Great... lose those training wheels!!!!
Spread the word and let's get a real class going!!
How about an Asym Cruising Class to include Bow mounted and Aftermarket/Retro Fit Sprits. We just need to figure out a way to keep the "racing" boats out. Minimum length? Minimum weight?
We have time to figure it out....we need input!!!!!
Marty P,
Happy to see you are ready to "take the training wheels off" so to speak and get into a spin class. That was the original intent of the cruising class so its good to see it in action!
A few thoughts...
-If you are ready to give the A-Kite a try, going with a bow mounted kite and sailing in the new class is an inexpensive and great way to start. You will get the speed benefits of an A-Kite without a massive rating hit or expensive boat modification. It is also a great way to get familiar with how the kites handle (if you aren't already familiar) and how your boat best reacts to it.
-If you want to go the aftermarket sprit route, sym pole off the headstay with an A-Kite, or get one of local fiberglass gurus to build you a fixed sprit you will have officially entered into the "race boat" realm and should be racing in the standard Asym class (yes, the one with the other "race boats").
-Choose the class that best supports your goals and budget (buying full size Asyms can be a slippery slope, many different cuts to choose from/have down below---ask anyone of the owners).
In a world of depleting fleets, the best thing to do is to get more boats in a same class rather than segregate them based on the fine print. Competing against more boats will force you to push harder, prepare better, and make new friends who I know are more than happy to share their own experiences in the class. So whether you choose to join the new Asym bow class or the full Asym class I promise you will find your races more fun, but also the competition more challenging. But that is kind of the point of racing!
Last point...there has been so much discussion and grumblings over the Rum and Icicle series over the last couple years about how the same boats always win, my boat cannot win, etc. The fact of the matter is these races are very very hard to win. I have raced them frequently for over 10 years on all shapes and sizes from heavy cruisers, melgi, J-everything, 1Ds, VX, and beach cats. The few times I was on a boat that was lucky enough to win we certainly earned it and had a good amount of luck on our side as well which makes a Rum/Icicle victory that much sweeter! So to everyone, try to keep focus on building your class numbers up rather than creating new classes for more trophies. Winning one every 5 years is way more memorable than sweeping one other boat for a summer...
Cheers.
For me, it's not about "training wheels" coming off. I have a 20 year old production sailboat. I found the GBCA a few years ago and really enjoy the races. But, a lot of the fun is in racing against other Hunters, Catalinas, Beneteaus and boats like mine, and those boats are all in the cruising class. Marty and I and others in the class have a-sails and symmetricals that are a lot of fun to race with when we can fly them. If I switched to the sprit class, my boat would be racing against J-109's and J-120's and such. If I switched to the bow class, I would hardly ever get to fly my a-sail being limited to very narrow range with a small foretriangle and large main on my boat that blankets an a-sail without a sprit.
We can't create a class for every boat's situation. Maybe two a-sail classes based on sprit length and sa/d, instead of a-sail sprit and bow classes, but math and rum might not mix well. I hope y'all can figure something out. In the mean time, I'm having a great time racing against the other Hunters and Catalinas in the cruising class.
Bill T
I like the idea of the weight limits or SA/D limits. The older and the cruising boats are normally heavier than the newer performance boats. When we had the non sprit class I do not remember any one boat dominating the series and I believe there were sym and asym kites there so that might be a way to go to get more boats out there.
I had a good discussion with Marty with some great ideas. If you have an idea (besides buy a one-design boat), send them to me. Let's talk.
After tomorrow's board meeting, I will post what was decided on. The idea is to have similar boats competing against similar boats. And, hopefully in 80% of all wind conditions.
I have only races on one A-kite bow class. That was Wittich's Saga 43. I was really impressed how deep that boat could go under the kite. I thought that PHRFGB and come up with a handicapping system that, so long as you kept the sprit short, bow boats and those type of sprit boats could race together.
From my perspective, I think the big difference between the J-Boats with sprits and the rest of the fleet is that we can usually carry spinnakers on two of the three legs. I remember a couple of Rum Races where Stinger managed to carry one of her spinnakers on all three. The J-sprits are all screaming reachers, even nonspinn, so its always going to be difficult to properly handled the differences via PHRF. I think Tuma has already pointed this out.
I suspect ORC might be better. The last HMR had at least one production boat like you guys are discussing in the top 4 of the Barcardi Class. Duane Bez actually won it one year. I don't know if either of these guys ran symmetric or a-symmetric but clearly they both did really well under ORC. ORC also allows one to have multiple spinnakers of various sizes. The bigger the kite, the bigger the handicap hit, but that is as is should be. You might want to try something like that for a race or two.
Quote from: Bee on February 22, 2019, 11:00:12 AM
I have only races on one A-kite bow class. That was Wittich's Saga 43. I was really impressed how deep that boat could go under the kite. I thought that PHRFGB and come up with a handicapping system that, so long as you kept the sprit short, bow boats and those type of sprit boats could race together.
From my perspective, I think the big difference between the J-Boats with sprits and the rest of the fleet is that we can usually carry spinnakers on two of the three legs. I remember a couple of Rum Races where Stinger managed to carry one of her spinnakers on all three. The J-sprits are all screaming reachers, even nonspinn, so its always going to be difficult to properly handled the differences via PHRF. I think Tuma has already pointed this out.
I suspect ORC might be better. The last HMR had at least one production boat like you guys are discussing in the top 4 of the Barcardi Class. Duane Bez actually won it one year. I don't know if either of these guys ran symmetric or a-symmetric but clearly they both did really well under ORC. ORC also allows one to have multiple spinnakers of various sizes. The bigger the kite, the bigger the handicap hit, but that is as is should be. You might want to try something like that for a race or two.
Very good point.. We can solve most of the problems if we used ORC. There are some critics and every system has it's pros and cons; even 1-D has cons. One of the biggest factors is SA/D. Most of the J-Boats with sprits are lighter and yield a higher SA/D. Hull shape is pretty critical as well. Face it, a C&C 38 will never reach 12-15 knots; nor would I want to be on it trying. This "debate" is what I have been dealing with for the last 25-30 years with multihulls. The keelboats are just now seeing a the effects of weight and sail area. Unfortunately, as builders keep producing different types of boats, it further divides the racing pool. In the days of IOR, dividing boats per rating was very easy; they went relatively the same speed. I know I've said this before. I am doing the best I can to group boats as they perform similarly and if someone has an idea and a method, please bring it forward. Thank you guys for being patient. This is a problem across the country. I am focusing on keeping GB on the forefront.
Y'all note the earlier entry in this forum about ORC Measurement. We're up to eleven boats being measured! Bring on more!!
Quote from: Hamburger No 1 on February 23, 2019, 04:06:59 PM
Y'all note the earlier entry in this forum about ORC Measurement. We're up to eleven boats being measured! Bring on more!!
I ageee that ORC is a much better system. We need the ones who have the certificate to enter the bay races and self promote it. Come race Spring Series Mardi Gras Regatta as ORC.
Can we start getting some firm ideas out so we can start to put a "box" around the definition of what the Cruising Asym Class will be. We have plenty of time now.
- Non factory (aftermarket) sprit not to exceed ? in length
- Attached at bow
- Bow weight not to be less than ????
- Factory installed refrigerator?
Limit hard and fast rules and let the entrants let "their conscience be their guide"? Use the general philosophy of the Cruising Class be the guide. If someone needs a bottle of rum...well so be it.
Let the current Cruising Class stand as is, use whatever you want, however you want.
The Cruising Asym could be viewed as a step up in the racing learning curve.
Class Flag? Orange with a big black Dot in the middle
These are just some thoughts I have to keep it going, so we don't wait until the last minute to get a consensus of what we want. It is afterall OUR club. We have to communicate what we want.
A couple more items for the discussion:
I know of at least one boat in the cruising class that races with both a poled symmetrical and a sprit asymm, might think about calling it cruising class spin and let them use either or both.
Aftermarket sprit seems like a good way to distinguish the class, might need to limit length, and maybe put a bottom rating on the class like 120 or so.
We'll have to get rated to our largest spinnaker and maintain a certificate.
Cruising club is not just a learning class, it's also for sailors who may not have the means or time to have newer sails, bottom cleaning, and other things that go into consistantly winning races, or they're just a little more casual about it. There may be a lot more of these casual racers wanting to stay in the class, than learners ready to take off the "training wheels". I would hate to dilute a fun class that has great turnout and add another class that can only turn out three or four boats. Maybe we need to take a poll to see how many would race in the new class?
Bill T.
Good discusion
great points
I am not really sure any rating system PHRF or ORC will cover the differences in the hull design. the evolution from heavy displacement to foiling cats spans 30 years or more. I do not want foils in my class either. ;)
I agree with the sail area and displacement grouping as getting closer to the truth. Now the sprit adds more J to the sail area so I think we need to stay away from that grouping. Like boats against like boats. Heavy against heavy and surfers against surfers. Its not necessarily cheap to get new sails but with some shopping you might find some used ones to try out for a bow a kite class.
And they are a trick to fly verses a sym kite so get some practice time in. We are still learning.
The Rum Races will be here before we know it.
How do these sound for class definitions:
• The Classes of the Cruising Club Fleet are:
o TRUE CRUISER CLASS (TCC) – These boats have interiors that include a reasonable level of comfort for extended Cruising. They are of moderate Performance Characteristics. They may not use symmetrical or asymmetrical spinnakers. (Would use current Club Handicap System)
o PERFORMANCE CRUISER CLASS (PCC) – Similar to TCC except participants are permitted to use a Symmetrical Spinnaker or Asymmetrical Spinnaker on a sprit or pole. They may choose to use an Asymmetrical Spinnaker tacked to the center line or single headsail non-spin. (Would use PHRF handicap)
(This came from the Chesapeake Bay PHRF, I've slightly reworded it in places.)
There would be no spinnakers in the TCC, and the PCC would take the place of the Bow Asym class we currently have.
Any thoughts?
Has anyone thought of using the "Race/Cruiser" definition on the PHRFGB website? That along with other rules like only allowing dacron sails or whatever might fit the bill.
For my part, I'd like to sail in such a fleet, if I can use my symmetrical spinnaker.
Bad Girl would be interested. I have been told I need to remove my stove and all this extra weight to be competitive. But I also enjoy the boat when I am not racing so I'm not going to do that. This would be fun to try out and be great for my crew who would like to start doing some spin races. I think that the boats that are interested would be great competition. I'm good with using the PHRF ratings and agreeing to a class description.
Almost
Dont forget the sprit adds up to 10 feet on the J dimension accorting to a sailmaker it can add 40 % more sail so I vote no sprit.
Good morning....after the board meeting last night this is what we have. Club Handicap is now split.
Club Handicap Non Spin: Obvious
Club Handicap Spin: Asym or Sym, sprit or however else you want to attach it to the boat. The first race will use your PHRF rating, then handicaps will be adjusted after each race. No poles on asyms.
I think it's a good start. Probably will need some fine tuning with time
Should be a lot of fun. Spread the word!!!!!!!
Marty
Just wondering aloud - why dont you clean the beach launch area out of debris. It would be good no matter what kite type you end up flying.