So I just received my 2014 rating. Our largest headsail is now only 120% LP instead of the typical 150% LP for our boat. Also, our largest spinnaker is now 1400 sq. ft. instead of the standard 1650 sq. ft. Given those too "significant" sail reductions, I was surprised my rating changed exactly 0. So, does that mean that I can still run my 150% genoa and big spinnaker even though they are not listed as the max sail areas on my rating certificate?
PHRF will look at your certificate. It is possible a mistake was made. Julie at HYC passed away and the new admin assistant is just now getting up to speed.
Now we are on this. I noticed that the website doesn't reflect Joan 3's PHRF correctly.
All,
The up to date "real" database is housed at HYC.
It is a manual process to transfer database to the web based database.
We know it is a problem and are attempting to address it and come up with a more modern solution.
This is old technology we are dealing with here...
...by modern I mean we hope to have the web database updated as timely as possible.
Julie passed away!!!!! That's terrible. She was a keeper for sure. Very nice lady. When did this happen?
Yes sad for sure Bee. I dont recall the exact date but i think around October.
Quote from: svShearwater on January 27, 2014, 04:44:40 PM
So I just received my 2014 rating. Our largest headsail is now only 120% LP instead of the typical 150% LP for our boat. Also, our largest spinnaker is now 1400 sq. ft. instead of the standard 1650 sq. ft. Given those too "significant" sail reductions, I was surprised my rating changed exactly 0. So, does that mean that I can still run my 150% genoa and big spinnaker even though they are not listed as the max sail areas on my rating certificate?
Rather than challenging your rating, you might want to ask some questions of the PHRF folks and get more information about what the "gates" are in rating your boat.
For example, perhaps in order to get a 3 second bonus your headsail must be 115% LP or smaller and your 120% doesn't make the "gate" to get the bonus. Same with your chute - you might ask about the square footage or whatever chute measurement they use to see why you didn't get the bonus for a smaller chute. Again, you might have a chute that isn't quite small enough.
Rather than be contentious, try getting the whole story and understand how / why your rating was assigned as it was. Some folks truly don't like PHRF (or whatever rating system they are being graded by - including one-design measurements) but most of them never ask the "why" question and get the facts about how they were assigned their rating. There will always be a vocal minority who complain no matter what number they get. Most of them just need to work on their preparation and practice. Vince Lombardi - "Perfect Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance" - I've always liked that one...
Quote from: BJSailor on January 27, 2014, 08:04:19 PM
Quote from: svShearwater on January 27, 2014, 04:44:40 PM
So I just received my 2014 rating. Our largest headsail is now only 120% LP instead of the typical 150% LP for our boat. Also, our largest spinnaker is now 1400 sq. ft. instead of the standard 1650 sq. ft. Given those too "significant" sail reductions, I was surprised my rating changed exactly 0. So, does that mean that I can still run my 150% genoa and big spinnaker even though they are not listed as the max sail areas on my rating certificate?
Rather than challenging your rating, you might want to ask some questions of the PHRF folks and get more information about what the "gates" are in rating your boat.
For example, perhaps in order to get a 3 second bonus your headsail must be 115% LP or smaller and your 120% doesn't make the "gate" to get the bonus. Same with your chute - you might ask about the square footage or whatever chute measurement they use to see why you didn't get the bonus for a smaller chute. Again, you might have a chute that isn't quite small enough.
Rather than be contentious, try getting the whole story and understand how / why your rating was assigned as it was. Some folks truly don't like PHRF (or whatever rating system they are being graded by - including one-design measurements) but most of them never ask the "why" question and get the facts about how they were assigned their rating. There will always be a vocal minority who complain no matter what number they get. Most of them just need to work on their preparation and practice. Vince Lombardi - "Perfect Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance" - I've always liked that one...
...like I said, we'll look at it tomorrow. Mistakes happen and something may not have been entered correctly, but you are right not every change you make that causes your boat to go slower gets you a PHRF credit.
I hope my post wasn't contentious. If there was a mistake, then that is great. If my sails don't meet the cut-off gates, then that is fine too, and my question about still using the larger sails applies.
Please don't let my surprise be taken as contention. Just a question.
Thanks.
It's probably neither here nor there, but I made an error in my original post. The standard class kite for a J/120 is around 1729 sq. ft., not 1650 sq. ft.
WOW. That's huge. 50 sq mt more then my 110.
Interesting. My 89 is roughly 81 percent of the 110. ( I'm a mathematician so I cannot do arithmetic very well)
Your 1400 is roughly 81 percent of the 1729.
If I choose to run with the OD class configuration the 89 gets me 9 seconds a mile. However, in that case my jib is 102%.
How does your current PHRF number compare to Liston's or Gault's J120 PHRF. I seem to remember
from the HMR that you had a 6 second advantage over them.
A picture is worth... Any wonder why we are downsizing or Double-Handing?
(http://www.svshearwater.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/DSCF2315.jpg)
They currently owe us 3 seconds. As it currently stands for the 3 second penalty Rebecca gets a carbon mast, 150% genoa, big class size kite, and no roller furling. I think Aeolus has roller furling, but I'm not positive. We obviously have roller furling and an aluminum mast.
I've seen examples of the mast alone being a 3 second difference and the roller furling being a 3 second difference.
By the way, PHRFGB did call me today and they are looking into my rating.
And, to be clear, I am not complaining. I am only stating facts (to the best of my knowledge) and asking a simple question. This is not a life or death decision for me. I will be perfectly fine regardless of the outcome.
I did not think you were complaining, but I was surprised to find the 81% for both your and my kites. I should think this big of a difference would warrant more then 3 secs/mile --- just not sure about the 120% headsail.
PHRF here (maybe everywhere) has always been a pain.
BTW, Stinger is the "big" red and white chute behind you in the picture.
We might be a pain, but at least it keeps some order into the world of so many sailboats going out and trying to compete on the same race course. I really feel sorry for you poor J boat sailors showing up with your light displacement boats and "big" A-kites, which on a close reach in light air become a 180% genoa. Is it fair to other more conventional boats and their rating? I don't know, I just try to stay as close as I can to the Catalina 22's and hope for the best! :)
Quote from: Bee on January 28, 2014, 04:52:02 PM
I did not think you were complaining, but I was surprised to find the 81% for both your and my kites. I should think this big of a difference would warrant more then 3 secs/mile --- just not sure about the 120% headsail.
At the moment my 81% kite hasn't warranted any change. Neither has the 120% headsail as my rating is exactly the same as 2013 when I measured in a 150% headsail and full size kite. That said, it is all under review by PHRFGB. Maybe there was a mistake in my 2014 rating. Should know soon.
Quote from: JA on January 29, 2014, 09:58:16 AM
We might be a pain, but at least it keeps some order into the world of so many sailboats going out and trying to compete on the same race course. I really feel sorry for you poor J boat sailors showing up with your light displacement boats and "big" A-kites, which on a close reach in light air become a 180% genoa. Is it fair to other more conventional boats and their rating? I don't know, I just try to stay as close as I can to the Catalina 22's and hope for the best! :)
There are several for sail, Jim!
Charles selling C-22's as a new hobby? Thanks but I have enough boats as it is! Like I said I just try to stay close and hope for the best! 8)
Sorry I did not mean to sound contentious. There is no question PHRF is a necessary system. We cannot do without it and I do appreciate the fact that PHRFGB volunteers make it work. But I still maintain it is a pain. OD is more fun, but getting and keeping a fleet together is also a pain.
From Andrea's ORC experiment it is not clear that any of the other systems are any better. Its just not easy to rate the more modern and technology advanced boats accurately. M24's, M32's, J70, and Vipers (even J80's) can and do sail above their ratings simply because they plane. In high enough winds even a J105 will plane for short periods of time. How in the hell would one rate a foiler? Its speed appears to be determined mostly by its apparent wind. Oh and what change would have to be made if the foiler also had an automatic Herbie?
Whether or not they are designed for it and as Cyrano is an example, any boat can be rigged to run a big A-kite or code 0. I have seen at least one C22 so rigged. Flying its A-Kite Cyrano won the Pineapple cup at least once. BTW, Cyrano was previously known on the Bay as Louise. When I sailed on her, her sail complement pretty much kept her from being very competitive but she was really fun to sail. Cyrano has placed in the Icicles, as has Mojo (24 and 32), Pingo, 2 J70s, and at least 2 Vipers.
Why the negative attitude toward J boats?. I think the C22's provide the anser. Since Ben Miller almost single handedly built up the local fleet they have been finishing the Icicles in grand style. Ben has consistently beaten those terrible J's with their huge A-Kites scratch and sometimes by big margins. Any surprise that there is grumbling about the C22 handicap? I mean how can one beat a boat that starts late Friday evening for a Saturday afternoon raced? :-).
BTW, when a OD fleet has one racer that always wins, the same kind of grumbling can cause that fleet to fall apart. No PHRF involved there.
Seems to me we just have to take our lumps and live with however boats are rated relative to one another. No one likes it but it is what it is.
Let's go have some fun in the Judge Elihu Smails race this coming Saturday. Put on that blazer, where that Capt's hat and hoist a few.
Hmmm Beer is good.
And the results are in. 3 second credit for the smaller headsail. The smaller spin doesn't garner a credit. There really isn't a credit available for smaller than class size spins, but there is a penalty for larger than class size spins (ie J105's with 110sqm kites instead of 90sqm class kites. I'm fine with that. Like I said, we went with the smaller spin primarily for handling purposes since we sail Double-Handed and long-term we'll be getting a Downwind Rating from PHRF NorCal which does recognize spinnaker size for the Downwind Ratings.
All good.
Thanks PHRFGB (Jay) for looking into it and making the change.