It seems like every race Walter on Firewater is crossing tacks with us out on the course somewhere. He may not know it, but his red hull is our benchmark. A race within a race. I'm sure there would be others, but his red hull is easiest to spot from a distance.
So I'm interested in organizing a one design fleet for some upcoming bay races. I have no idea how to do such a thing, nor do I know what the rules might be.
Our boat SolAire is a 1972 Ericson 39, 30' LWL, listed as 19,000lbs displacment, 9500lbs in the keel, draws 6', we sail with a 129% genoa, 2015 PHRFGB is 126
Here are the approximate characteristics of our boat in 10kts of wind (we have no polars):
Going to weather:
point of sail 30 degrees AWA, 6.0kts+/-, we tack through about 90 degrees. I'm guessing on the speed here.
Close reaching we generally run 7.3kts+/-
We fly an assymetrical spinnaker tacked to our anchor roller, it sails from about 80 degrees AWA to about 150 AWA, approximately a Code 3A.
We are low and slow in the light air like all heavier boats.
I'm looking for boats with similar characteristics. Any takers?
Chris
You might look at the old Level 70 fleet for guidance. The fleet was made up of boats rated 69 to 82, all raced level. Any given boat could win on any given day, depending on conditions and crew work.
Quote from: Tye Dyed Gary on February 08, 2015, 12:49:55 PM
You might look at the old Level 70 fleet for guidance. The fleet was made up of boats rated 69 to 82, all raced level. Any given boat could win on any given day, depending on conditions and crew work.
Thanks Gary. Loved your socks at the Ball, by the way.
My favorite search engine turned up a whole bunch of hits for Level 70 of various video games. Dang kids these days, they need to get outside and play! And GET OFF MY LAWN!
Sorry. Do you have any info on the Level 70 Fleet?
Chris
The best I can remember are some of the boats in the level 70 class. The ones I remember are, Cayuse J-37, Predator & Andela Tripp 36, Joss & Leading Edge J-35 and Millenium Express Express 36, there were other boats but these are the ones that always came out for every race. I know they had a set of by-laws but I never had a copy.
The level 70 fleet was organized and sailed in the early part of this century or maybe the later part of the last. I was never part of it, mostly because I did not own a boat that could match the numbers. I think the level was centered around 69. Some of the level 70 class included Tom Sutton's J/35 Leading Edge, Fred Prelle's Tripp/36 Predator, John Butler's Express/37 Millennium Express, Greg Way's Trip??? Fusion, Alex Crowell's Shock 35, and Marty Kraft's ???, Hydrodyn. All flew symmetric spinnakers. I am sure that any one of these guys would be willing to discuss the pluses and minuses of level PHRF fleets. Sutton is frequently at the GBCA parties (he was at the Commodore's Ball). Alex Crowell has Bahama rigging so these two would be fairly easy to contact. Greg Way now sails Gold Rush and is also frequently part of many of the local regattas.
As you can see from the range of boats, thinking of this collection as level is pretty difficult to do. Most of these were very fast boats with top-notch sailors on board, but given a certain set of wind conditions, one or the other of these boats would be highly favored.
Yep, forgot about Cayuse --- Hal Halton at HYC.
Could also look to find old NOOD regatta data as well. Most classes were based off of PHRF banding into One Design classes.
Also Chuck Buckner's 42s7 Heatwave and Al Poindexter's Tripp 36 Andale. There were actual bylaws as I recall. Haltom would be the logical source for them, if they exist anymore. It was a pretty good class with some good racing and lasted a few years. I was on Predator.
We raced Psyched in virtually every Level 70 event from 1992 till 1999-2000. I may have a printed copy somewhere of the rules. It was mostly driven by sail area/disp and disp/L. Yes the parameters were 69-81 but also extended to 84 to allow Jim Bigalows J36 Pippa Passes to race.
It was great sailing in its day! We used to get up to 10-14 boats for the old Level 70 Shootouts!! 3 day event on the bay with only Level 70 boats. Great times!!!!!
Kevin
Oh, and John Taylor's J36 Flying Cloud.
Nostalgia is nice, OD is nice, but I really do miss all those great boats and great sailors. Wish we could get them all back on the Bay. Always made for fun racing. I am sure the economy had something to do with it but technology also reared its head --- J80's, J105's, J92's, J109's, and now J70's and just about any kind of sled you can think of.
Maybe we can get a 3D carbon based printer to cut costs.
I'm glad I could prompt a fun trip down memory lane!
I am interested in a fleet that starts with sailboat metrics like SA/D and D/L, as noted by Kevin Hayes, with a cross check to PHRF. We know what we want, a fun interesting group of boats that sail a similar race and participate often. How do we define is the question.
Any old paperwork that could be passed along would be great.
Thanks!
Chris
Once upon a time...
Larry Kevan/Rand Valentin Electron
Larry Blankenhagen Parrot Tales
etc
I have the bylaws electronically from the latter period. They run a bit long.
The class failed in this area because every one of those boats, except mine, was set up as a cheater boat. That is, they were all rule beaters. Though we used PHRF as the basis for entry, almost every boat had some sort of edge under some conditions. As a result, certain people were really great sailors on certain days.
In my opinion, and I was in it from the shootout days until it died, the best way to go about it is do handicap adjustment, starting with PHRF numbers and a program like sailwave that does back calculated ratings. After each race you allow the boats that did not win to adjust their handicap by a percentage of the difference in their bcr. You have to have limits to deter sandbagging, but I think it could work. Only other option is IMS/ORC and that takes a lot of effort to do right.
"The class failed in this area because every one of those boats, except mine, was set up as a cheater boat. That is, they were all rule beaters"
Hmmmm!! Clarification please? (By the way my "cheater boat" is for sale if anyone wants it!!!)
The basis behind every design is that they will outsail there rating in a given conditiion. If you look at IRC, HPR or ORC the designers are always trying to get there boats to perform better than the rating says they should. Doesnt clasify them as cheater boats or cheater designs.
The downside of the "golf handicap" method or adjusting ratings based upon race results is that you are penalizing boats that are prepared with new sails, good bottoms and that are pushed hard. Granted they may not be directly penalized but adjusting the competitors that they beat is effectively adjusting the winner.
Level racing is a lot of fun if you can get the parameters worked out. Yes in light air a certain boat may win and in heavy air a certain boat may win but all in all it beats sitting there looking at your watch.
PHRF works best when there is a tight rating band. Not perfect but a good system.
For the original post about the Ericson/ C&C one design type class. Y'all might consider trying again the idea of a "classic class" We did this years ago with moderate success. I remember one shoe regatta when the classic class was the largest fleet in the event.
The basic idea would be a class of boats designed prior to a certain date medium to heavy displacement etc. I'm not sure how tight the rating band would be but at least it would bring together boats of a similar era and perhaps some design similarities.
The major problem with something like a classic class, level 70, SOS or club handicap is that it will break up an already shrinking PHRF class here on Galveston Bay.
JZ
s/v Banjo Girl.
Jay-
That is a great point about breaking up the PHRF division. And I do think the PROs do a pretty good job of breaking up the PHRF Spin into a A and B fleet. And perhaps I should save myself the trouble and just go with that.
What you describe is exactly what I am trying to achieve: a classic fleet of boats that were raced in a previous era, all sailing spinnakers and all trying to participate in as many regattas that we can. We all have modern material sails, well maintained bottom paint and other updates.
What's up with phrfgb.com??
Big John- I'd be interested in taking a look at the bylaws you have...
Chris
PHRFGB site was hacked. It is being worked on by the web hosting company. They say 24-48 hrs to bet it up and running again.
I'd be glad to share those bylaws. I think you might get the idea that we were a bunch of paranoid lawyers from reading it. But then . . . maybe we were.
Basically you make some decisions like some of the following, and write the rules to make it happen.
Is it an exclusive thing or can anyone play?
Owner driven or rock-stars permitted
Limits:
PHRF band
SA/D limits
D/L limits
"At the time GBCA had a definition of "Sport boat" involving these two parameters)
Sprit/Assym boats allowed or Not
Deviations from stock?
Despite all our yelling about getting away from handicaps, in the end we decided to use them to help keep people's interest. We did want to experiment with "better" handicap methods, but could not get ratings for a couple of the boats. So in essence our group really just wanted to usurp the organizing authority's choice of rating bands.