Looking at the steadily shrinking scratch sheets of Galveston Bay handicap racing events, it merits reflection on possible causes, and what could be done to revitilize the handicap race fleets.
The ORC rule, for a while, seemed to hold a lot of promise as a cost effective way to handicap boats using only speed potential, not crew performance, as its only criteria. I still believe that the ORC, competently managed, could work. Proof that it is a fair rule was demonstrated in the 2007 Harvest Moon race. The first four boats that year, Premier, Neftigaz, Mojo,(the Melges) and Danelaw, ( a 40 year old design) demonstrated that the VPP of radically different designs generated highly accurate results. We can assume that all 4 boats were sailed to the top of their potential. Mojo and Danelaw corrected within 63 seconds of each other.
PHRF, for some of us, has become frustrating to the point of killing all desire to go through the expense and effort to race, when it is clear that other boats in your class that you owe time to, or rate even with, are simply physically faster by every paramenter that makes a boat fast. I've been racing GBCA events religiously for over 4 decades, and it is hard to think about giving up on something I've enjoyed for so long. I'd like to think that there still is hope for regenerating interest in handicap racing. I'd be glad to offer my input into possible ways to implement a handicap rule, that would rate boats by the boat's potential, nothing more.
Roy, I don't know how to answer that. but you make some serious and well thought out points. I can assure you that GBCA and the other authorities are quite concerned about the diminishing fleet. Your input and any one else's is helpful and much appreciated.
I can only offer an opinion on the spin a/b side of the fleet. I have been racing since 2005, and it was the rum races, both on Lake Pontchartrain and subsequently Galveston Bay that allowed us to break into the sport at our own pace. Then having a reasonable selection of W/L races allowed us to work on our skills and improve as a team. Having a fleet of similar boats certainly makes it more interesting. My best memories on the bay are of the close racing in the level 70 fleet with our 36.7 and then the constant battle with Gambler and Hot Ticket for the past two years with our J122.
When you are investing in a program Otra Vez and want to compete at a high level you are going to have to travel the boat some and race on the bay some, and when the top of the fleet is so small, the fleet can almost disappear for extended periods just from schedule conflicts.
At this point, I think the bay is still suffering from some post-Ike issues, and from a natural rotation of owners and interests. GBCA, LYC, HYC, still run great races and I don't think PHRF is the reason for the decline. Otra Vez has a CSA, IRC, ORC and PHRF rating. Each has it pluses and minuses but at no point did I feel we had no chance of winning under any of the ratings. If I had a vote, I would say IRC as I have seen that work across a wide range of well sailed boats but it is CRAZY expensive to get rated.
The rum races (or any fixed mark race with a social component) are the key to getting big boats out on the race course and their owners bitten by the racing bug. I would really make an effort to get new boats out racing this summer and then find a way to bridge the gap from the rum to the icicle series.
Otra Vez will be back from the Caribbean sometime in the next two years and will look forward to racing amongst friends on the bay.
Bill Coates
No system is perfect, and many people have given countless hours to try to give fair ratings, and I know we all appreciate the time they put into it, whether we like a particular system or not.
I am heading the Harvest Moon Regatta committee this year. While I like the ORC Club system, the fleet has not adopted it for other races, so I suggested we go back to using PHRF for the Bacardi fleet. However, the race organizers want the best system available for the club's most prestigious trophy, and they believe, in part for the reasons Roy stated, that ORC is that system. John Butler has agreed to help with administration of the system, and we would welcome any other involvement, including a joint effort with the PHRF committee. There is some indication that US Sailing is going to be more supportive of ORC Club too. I have heard that ISAf has directed that IRC and ORC put their heads together and come up with a single system, but that won't happen overnight. In the past, because the Europeans did not race in January and February, it was usually March before ORC Club certificates could be issued for the year. Since Australia adopted ORC (getting rid of IRC, I think) they are now issuing certificates earlier in the year, so we can begin soliciting renewals at the first of each year, instead of waiting until just before HMR. I have often thought that rum races were great but could not be done using ORC, but I guess there is nothing preventing the use of the ORC General Purpose Handicap single number to create a race run like GBCA's rum races.
I need to say that the simplicity of the PHRF one number system works well for our HMR cruising class. While our cruisiers balk a getting a PHRF certificate, they have to provide us the same info, and we use PHRF procedures to rate them, for the most part. But there are so many of them, we can sort them by water line length, sail area to displacement, length to displacement, and PHRF base ratings, and then put them into divisions of very similar boats. As a result, they get pretty good competition within their division of 8 to 12 boats. but they don't do windward leewards. We do get some of them out for our other longer bay races like Bay Cup and the Shoe distance race. We have talked about resurrecting a classic canvas class to try to keep the more experienced guys from demoralizing the cruisers who are just starting out.
First the rating system(s)
I was, at first, very pleased to see the ORC rating system arrive on the bay. I expected this system to at the very least really level the playing field, and I think that is verified by the close corrected timings in the HMR. I also expected it to tone down the political gyrations associated with PHRF. I was surprised that this did not happen. There were three issues with the system. First it used two numbers. Its not always easy to do the correction for each and every boat your up against, so its close to impossible to figure out your standing at the finish. Second, only one club adopted the system then only for one long offshore race. Yeah I know you can, in theory, sign up ORC for any of the club's races, but I haven't observed those classes making. Third, under ORC, not only can any given boat have as many certificates as he or she can come up with, OD boats can have different ratings.
I have never raced IRC so I don't know what the issues are there but I do see this system being available in a large number of venues.
So as far as the rating system goes, I have three suggestions:
!. What ever system you use be sure to get the results out as fast as you possibly can. With todays technology it should be possible to have this happen immediately after the last boat finishes or at least after the time limit is reached. GBCA has been doing this on the RC boat so with a smart phone you can get the info on the water even before you dock.
2. Get all the local clubs to offer the potential for a large number of boats to register for the system. Might even consider doing some thing like a rum race for as many boats as one can provide preliminary certificates for.
3. Make sure that when the race starts the OD boats all have the same numbers. They will bitch if one boats gets a perceived rating advantage.
Getting more boats on the water
I have no idea as to how to entice more folks to come out and play, but I do have the feeling that the average HMR participant is not really a race bitten sailor. Those that I have spoken to at length are much more interested in their boats from a creature comfort and socializing/partying point of view. I admit to have been surprised by this at first because as most of you know I can be a super aggressive animal. I don't know if getting these guys out can result in more participation with us racing nerds or not (I suspect not) but I do know that these guys like their form of sailing as much as we like ours. With this much of a rant in place, I would suggest that
1. The local clubs get together and organize some "Get behind the wheel days" (See the posts in the corresponding thread)." I would be happy to have Stinger participate. I am quite sure Stinger is not the only possibility. Each club could get some publicity for this and hopefully entice some new memberships.
2. Make sure each NOR lets everyone know which types of race courses will be offered. This is a resource issue and consequently one cannot expect each and every club to have all varieties but every once in a while different courses might be just the ticket to get more boats out.
3. Find a way for those not associated with any of the more traditional yacht clubs to be able to at least buy their libations at that clubs bar. As someone who lived in Oklahoma at the time of that states great blue laws, I can tell you that every club in town had temporary memberships for pennies on the dollar. There has to be a way to make this easy at each of the clubs without limiting club membership.
OK, this is more than 2 cents worth of rant, but I am really worried about the lessening of participation in sail boat racing. Not sure anything will work but we definitely need to be creative and try.
Bee had some good points.
I would sure like to get a read on how many of us would give ORC another chance if some of their concerns could be mollified.
Roy
Proper boat measurements are the foundation of a "measured" rule. Unless they are done to an agreed standard you will get into the same situation as with PHRF. It may have cost an arm, a leg, and two winch handles but the endorsed IRC has been the best rating we have raced under. If you want to go ORCi or ORC Club full on, we are going to need to get some sort of measurement standard and measurers in place, and make sure it is done at a reasonable cost.
Bill
Proper boat measurement is absolutely necessary, but I bet that except for something like a Melges 32 or 24, every boat in a given class will get a different number. When you allow for AC, actual weight, roller furlers, ... each mathematical system will come up with a different set of numbers. Yet, when the class race takes off the ratings are flat.
I fully agree that we should get a set of measurers and have the boats measured and, dare I say it, weighed under reasonable restrictions about what's on board when the boat is on the scale. That would give a minimum weight for each boat and would leave it up to the owner to decide how much additional stuff he wanted to take with him during the race.
I have had access to the true weights of several J105's and I can tell you that the range was quite impressive. Nevertheless we all race scratch. To loose in ORC to a competitors J105 due simply to a difference in certificate numbers does not set well.
For OD boats I would definitely like to see a single certificate.
Most of the spin boats could probably get an ORC cert quite easily. What I would like to see is a year of races where the boats are rated using both systems. Yeah, I mean every regatta we run, including to the extent possible the Rum races. This would give everyone a sense of what the differences are and then let them choose which system they want. One could still score based on PHRF but the results would be posted both ways. I also know that there would still be a lot of bitching about why they won in ORC but lost in PHRF, but this is the only way I can see to provide the basis for a decision in favor of one system or the other.
If you think Galveston Bay has issues, come to Corpus. We've average 3-5 boats TOTAL for our "regattas". Let's face it folks, sailing's simply too damn expensive and time consuming for 99.99% of the human race. I own and campaign two boats, travel the entire US to find competition and frankly, it's getting worrisome.
I believe the only solution is noew blood. We want more people, more boats? Give them the equipment. Seriously. Until clubs and/or organizations come forward with dirt cheap access to boats, ain't gonna happen. How cheap? $200 annually cheap. No kidding. I can play tennis in numerous leagues anywhere in the US for less than $200 annually. Until sailing makes it dirt cheap and dumb simple, we will all soon be racing single digit regattas. Count on it.
IMHO
Humbug
While I pretty much agree with your conclusion, the question remains how do we get the young blood out there. I guess I believe that most of the young blood that comes into the sport does so through dinghies, opti's, sunfish, and the like. Unfortunately even those fleets are suffering. Up here on GB, most of us have trouble finding reasonable crew. Just a few years ago this was difficulty, but certainly not as hard as it appears to be today. Finding and keeping good crew is a major effort.
I will be the first to admit that I do not have a good handle on why the sport appears to have dropped of so fast, but I still would like to see us do something to try and increase participation. I doubt that the major manufacturers can lower their prices very much so the costs will not change. If the only factor is cost, then we are pretty much doomed.
My gut feeling is that its a combination of factors. There are a lot of classic novels and even modern movies that make the point that sailing is either the domain of the wealthy OR the choice for those who have some "call of sea" in their veins. Sailing in many forms has a reputation for requiring lifetime dedication to a skill - becoming a "sailor" might be in the minds of many people a career, not a hobby or a sport. In addition, there is not to my knowledge a lot of awareness of the sport or the opportunities. Because of this, I think its something that people don't connect with themselves - they see it as a distant luxury. That has been my experience sharing my sailing adventures with my friends and acquaintances at least.
I think its trivial to counteract these perceptions, but it needs to be done on an individual basis, e.g. really connecting with people who show an interest and saying "YOU can sail, this is for YOU, not just that guy out there already, or the Thomas Crown guy or Larry Ellison, etc..." Of course, part of the draw to sailing for some people IS the elan associated, but there will always be the America's Cup to aspire to...
Growing up, the biggest influence getting me into sailing was boy scouts.
I have no idea what relationship, if any, the various yacht clubs in the area have with local boy and girl scouting chapters, but that is a tremendous way to introduce youth to the sport as something accessible to them. As an Eagle Scout myself, its something I would personally be willing to try and donate at least some time to, as little as I have available.
Other ideas off the top of my head: sailing clubs at local universities? I know A&M has a great program, what about the smaller colleges and universities with locations around the bay? I'm sure there are several, I am personally just wondering what the racing community could do, again, to encourage their involvement. Perhaps if these college clubs can show productive partnerships with the racing teams, they could receive some more funding for self-promotion and awareness raising? Maybe we could teach them to hold their own regattas? Do they?
Just ideas, from the FNG... :)
You have a good point SFLS - but i dont think money is the main issue (although it is something to consider). Time and hassle is. It's pretty difficult to round up and coordinate 5 - 10 people to race a big boat, which is one of the reasons Dulcinea has been sitting @ dock for the last 18 months. One bad egg in the program can ruin the regatta for the whole lot.. Cost is an entry barrier for much the youth but not a good excuse for most - most of the bass fishermen spend more on their boats / tourney's than I do racing... if you consider the viper, they spend triple!
AYC is doing a test drive day (see thread in main forum) this Sat. Someone has taken gone out and put up posters around town and at all the local gyms.. THATS how you're goign to grow the sport - introduce people to it in a non-biased fashion. Expected attendance for that event is so high we're goign to have at least 2 - 3 J80s and Vipers available.. There will also be a J105 out taking rides. Good stuff.
As for youth - the guys up at Lakefest this past weekend did a VERY smart thing; they invited all the local(ish) college sailing teams to come participate. They had kids from OU, A&M and North Texas just to name a few. They furnished them with a few cabins, the rest camped. Those kids filled out a bunch of large boats that are usually under-crewed. It was neat to hear them talk about wanting to get a boat or become steady crew when they get out of college.
IMHO, this handicap stuff plays a small part in killing the sport.
I definitely agree we should have an Austin type show here, and, in point of fact, we almost do --- GBCA's Basic Sailboat Racing Seminar. I think this is a really good starting point. This puts the guys who want to learn to race through the ropes and then takes them out to sail. Publicize this more, find a very public place to allow people to jump on board and your there. GBCA did this last year fairly successfully and I think if we all work at it, we can make it into something special.
As to getting young blood out, I have observed that many of the 25- bunch likes speed. That speaks to Cats, Tris, Vipers, Melges of all stripes, and the like. Definitely need to provide rides for that as well.
By the way Dr. Box, how did this go last year?
remember the good ol days
i don't know why we got away from olympic circle at hyc for the one designs and fixed marks for cruiser racers
it was so much easier, the racers didn't need to wait for the race committee to make the line perfect and wait for the perfect wind, we just let the racers deal with it, and the committee didn't feel they needed to make it perfect.
cruisers could go around long fixed courses and for those non rabid racers they felt like they were out for a cruise .
then one day one of the cruisers was beat by his friend on the pier so secretly he scrubbed his bottom before the next race and a new racer was born. then the sailmaker convinced his friend into a new jib and a rivalry happened.
sailing cruiser racers around less then one mile W-L requires more skill and crew
i sail up east and they give a 6 sec or 9 sec rating benefit to what they call cruisers for someone who wants to try a spinnaker but not have a full complement of spins or jibs. they only allow that rating benefit with just one jib and one spin onboard. that way they get try out the spin and some become racers.
allow 2 boats to make a one design class start. some of best racing i have ever done was with just two solings on the line. then maybe next time there will be three
just some more 'two cents"
Quote from: Bee on April 20, 2010, 09:25:46 AM
By the way Dr. Box, how did this go last year?
Bee,
It went well. We gained new members and new racers. It's happening again this year at:
http://www.regattanetwork.com/clubs/gbca.html (http://www.regattanetwork.com/clubs/gbca.html)
Question for you one design guys: If there are only two of you, would you rather race in a two boat division and compete for one trophy (as suggested above), or race in a handicap class with seven other boats for four trophies?
Some good head to head competition could be good, even in a big fleet like HMR.
Match racing against an equal is my preference.
Malcolm and I went at each other in the HYC Midwinter, and that was some of the most intense and fun racing I have ever done. The two boats were never far apart and always in the hunt. Malcolm is a lot more experienced then I am and he pulled some really interesting tricks on us. Its always more fun when the boats are all within striking distance of each other.
I vote for two boat classes. Heck with the trophies.
This is probably the worst political thing one could do, but I would also like to see some regattas run with both PHRF and ORC where, regardless of start, all boats are rated as if they are in one big class. Hell, I would go so far as to have one big gigantic start.
Why would you do that you ask?
It would give us a chance to evaluate the systems on a very practical basis. Is ORC really the leveler that some think it is?
All of the current local J105's have been weighed with highly accurate digital scales. Since ORC makes use of this number we might be able to get some idea of what the differences actually mean. Same might be true for the 80's, J122's, and other OD style boats. Just how big of a difference is 100#?
Probably a waste of time to suggest it. Quite certain that at least one PHRF'er would not take kindly to a J105 with a PHRF of 78 racing class sails with a handicap of 87 and a corresponding ORC certificate.
After a bit of time observing, it seems that there a few distinct groups of sailors/racers (in absolutely no particular order):
1) A group of hard-core one-design racers that want nothing more than to mix it up with their own kind. They seem to prefer windward / leeward courses, fairly short (1.5nm or less) and a duration of less than 1 hour 15 minutes.
2) One design racers who enjoy the "knife fight" of duking it out with identical boats, but who are also agreeable to sail in a larger fleet with more boats if that is what it takes. These boats are agreeable to fit into a PHRF fleet as long as the fleet balances out in a fairly equitable fashion as far as the handicaps go. They seem to prefer windward / leeward courses, but are satisfied with 1.5nm courses and races that last a bit longer.
3) Those very competitive spinnaker racers that are not one-designs, but crave the racing environment. These folks have the faster one-off (not one-design) boats that the love to race and are willing to spend the time and $'s to make them as fast as possible. These are usually the PHRF A types who like windward / leewards and are usually satisfied with courses long enough to test them (1.25nm) but not so long as to make it a parade (1.25 hours or so)
4) PHRF B type boats. These folks normally have boats with higher handicaps, but still want to mix it up with competive spinnaker sailing. Again, they prefer their own kind - those boats with similar handicaps where everyone can stay in touch with each other during a race with nobody extending (or trailing) too far. 1.5nm and 1.25 - 1.5 hours seems the right length for these folks.
5) Serious non-spinnaker racers. Prefer to not race with a chute - whether because they don't have one, don't want one, or don't have the crew or perceived experience to race spinnaker. This is not a small group of sailors - a very large minority. These racer's first choice is also windward / leeward, but they will often be happy with courses with free legs (fixed marks). Over a weekend, they would like 2-3 races on Saturday and 2 on Sunday. They're out there to race and are willing to work hard to go racing.
6) New racers and "relaxed" non-spinnaker racers. These are folks who love being on the water and sailing from point to point with a goal and an incentive to do well. These boats are typically happy sailing whatever course is set for them. Fixed marks are just fine for this group.
7) Those sailors who bring their boat out infrequently and don't worry about things like ratings or handicaps. These folks just enjoy the activity of sailing and being around other sailors. Sometimes they need some mentoring / coaching. But, for the most part, they are enthusiastic and accommodating.
8) SOS. Single and Double Handers are another group that must be considered. Some of them are highly competive and talented sailors and they take their racing seriously. This group has carved out their own niche in our racing community and continue to be popular. Fixed marks and/or longish legs seem to be their preference.
9) Only-Want-To-Race-One-Regatta-A-Year - There a large number of folks who we only see in events like the Harvest Moon. Never see them racing on the Bay. Almost never see them on any event except for their exceptional turnout for the HMR. LYC has a challenge in handling these one-a-year racers (and I don't envy them their job).
10) Sportsboats! What an ignored group in this area! Vipers, Melges, SBs, Lasers, even J/80s. We've never figured out how to handle these planing rockets. When one (or a small fleet) shows up, they end up getting shoehorned into our other handicap classes.
11) Small keel / centerboarders. Ensigns, Lightnings, Sonars, Solings, Etchells, Flying Scots - who else am I forgetting. Occasionally these sailors appear, but they seem to gravitate to TCYC and some to HYC. 0.5 - 0.75nm courses of 45min or 1hr in length. Similar requirements to the sportboats.
12) Dinghys. Lasers, 29ers, 420s etc. Rarely seen on Galveston Bay except for Seabrook Sailing Club and TSA Youth Circuit. You've got no idea how much fun these events can be!
13) Speaking ouf Youth events... HYC, TCYC, and LYC all have active youth programs. If we want to grow, we absolutely need to grow this area!!! Kids who are 8-15 have their own circuit. Youth 15-18 can still compete in Lasers, 29ers and 420s. But, other than the minimal collegiate programs, where do older youth and young adults go to continue their competitive racing?
I'm sure there are more groups, and I'm sure more folks who are smarter than I will re-classify and create other groups. What is important is that there a large number of diverse groups that ALL must be acommodated and encouraged to participate. Trying to satisfy such a large number of sailors who have such diverse requirements, is always a challenge. Events that are targeted toward specific groups tend to alienate a large group of sailors. Events that try to be all-inclusive can be challenging in trying to satisfy everybody. For everyone out there who is, and has been, a racer - take some time to get involved in organizing and running these events. It's fun and rewarding.
Bottom line - WHAT CAN WE DO TO GET MORE BOATS / SAILORS ON THE WATER?
Bee
For HMR we are seriously considering scoring the Bacardi fleet under both systems. The over all trophy would be ORC Club but boats could choose between an Orc division or a phrf division IF there are enough similar boats to create a PHRF division. We would also limit the cruising spinnaker class to poleless cruising spinnakers. Any boat that has an A kite and a symmetrical kite or a sprit boat would have to go to the Bacardi fleet but could race PHRF if there are similar boats to create a division, but would also be eligible for the Bacardi Cup if the boat had an ORC certificate. By the same token we could consider small one design divisions if we had a couple J105s or J109s. Some would-be cruising spin boats would have to decide whether they want to leave most of their spinnaker inventory at home or move into a combined Bacardi fleet.
The goals would be :
Protect cruisers - who were the focus of the original regatta - from hard core racers
Create more competition with in the Bacardi fleet by encouraging experienced, well equipped boats to race with racers
Accomodate boats who do not believe they are treated equitably by a handicap system
Andrea
Last year we won the Commodore's Cup. We know that kind of irritated a couple of the folks in that division, but I have to admit I did not think it would happen. Not really nice to race against a lightweight A-Kite boat, but except for when the front came through the winds were not actually favorable to us. Wound up fourth in ORC (at least according to the cert I used) and fourth overall in PHRF (including the ORC boats). That amazed me.
I really have no problems with running both systems and would love to see it. Nevertheless, I am a bit concerned about someone who might win in PHRF and lose in ORC. That person would not be very happy, so I am somewhat uncomfortable with my suggestion. I also think that because the big time racers are running ORC, the Barcardi Cup has become "THE CUP" and the Commordore's Cup has somehow become "the cup". They need to be equal in terms of respect. We need to make sure that both Cups get equal respect. Not sure I know how to do this but we should try to find a way. Certainly A messy political situation so tread delicately.
My only real problem with ORC is the recognition that a number of folks think its somehow less advantageous than PHRF. Yes, just like PHRF one can cheat, but given honest sailors that should only happen once in a great while and everyone will know who the ringer is. The real reason I suggested running a number of side-by-sides is that we could choose the winner based on PHRF but at least see how the fleet finished with the more mathematical system. Might make ORC more acceptable and maybe even a system to be used more routinely. Stinger will be running ORC in the HMR this year for sure. Its probably too late for this season, but what I would like to see is to run the Spring, Midwinter, Shoe, Elissa, Bank, Leukemia, and the Turkey day with enough boats running both systems (including the OD classes) to see how all this shakes out.
I think your goals are fine. Being the ultra aggressive guy I am I do have trouble understanding the so called "cruisers" but I from what I heard I do have a lot more respect for them and for how they look at sailing. Definitely need to make sure we respect them and keep them coming out. Anyone who spends two days sailing over from New Orleans to do the HMR has to be a decent sailor, even if he never did any other race in his entire life.
Personally, I would always want to be in the hunt for one of the two CUPs. I'm not all that motivated by the trophies you hand out, but I clearly do like to win, am I am very unlikely to give up my kites.
Would be nice to use one system.
If we are going to continue to use ORC in our area I think it would be good to have an ORC only regatta on the bay. All boats race under ORC, no PHRF. They did this in the early 90's with IMS on the bay. The participation was very limited but at least you can test the system and sure after the race everyone will compare it to PHRF and see how it compares.
As for Harvest Moon my vote would be to have either ORC or PHRF but not both. We dont have enough boats to have two "racing" fleets. ORC seems to pretty decent when the options are left open for wind direction/strength and type of course. PHRF ratings for HM are hit or miss depending on conditions and wind angle.
PHRF-GB has given us some seriously good racing and I still haven't seen anything to convince me that ORC would be any more fair. This after what, 4 years of testing?
I basically agree with goth the Kevin's, but I still would like to see a direct one-on-one comparison. KH's suggestion that we run an ORC fest in the bay is a good one. This could be a PHRF winner takes all type affair with ORC used for comparison purposes only. I also agree that for any given race the results should be based on one system only. As I said earlier the use of one system for the Barcardi and another for the Commodore's Cup would appear to belittle one vs the other. Perhaps I am wrong about that but I am convinced that one and only one system should be used in any given race/regatta.
Wow! Very informative reading. Thank you.
I myself wonder about why the olympic (traingle windward leeward ) courses went away. This course selection would certainly make it easier on the larger boats who can't manouver like a J 22. Would any of the clubs be willing to employ this tried and true course layout for a major regatta?
Roy
The triangle courses went away because the reaching legs are basically "no passing zones". I am not sure that it is easier to handle a larger boat on a triangle. If the triangle is set properly then you must execute a reach to reach jibe with the spin pole up. That is probably the hardest manuever to do with a large symetric boat. Especially considering on a lot of older "IOR" type boats you can square the pole back and go almost dead downwind and many cases never have to gybe.
My two cents anyways!!
Just a few points regarding triangular courses:
1) Reaches are 'No Passing Zones' (aka 'The Parade') unless demanding conditions require higher boat and sail handling skills from the crews and/or equipment (loads increase dramatically as one sails closer to the wind). 'Up in the Lulls, Down in the Puffs', and using the apparent wind to pass to leeward become highly rewarded skills, as these become the techniques used for passing on reaches.
2) A triangular course easily becomes skewed with any wind shift, making one reach tighter and the other broader (see 1 above). Even the steady breezes of Galveston Bay make it difficult for a race committee to keep the course as designed. It also requires a third stake boat and crew to stand by, on station at the wing mark, to move it if necessary....
3) A lot of today's modern designs easily pop up on a plane on tighter reaches. No rating system on Galveston Bay properly accounts for the increased speed of planing (Portsmouth does). Owners of older designs should not be campaigning for triangular courses if they are going to race in planing conditions for their competition... unless, of course, they are compassionate, understanding, and ok watching a passing competitor, their bow spray landing fifteen feet behind their stern, catching occasional glimpses through the spray of the beaming grins and wide eyes of their excited crew.
4) Wind shifts provide opportunities to pass and are more easily tracked on leeward legs. Lack of planing (usually) on leeward legs allows the rating system to better account for design differences.
5) No passing zones aren't necessarily bad things for those participants that just enjoy going around a race course with, and against, their friends... or for those that want a leg on which to relax a little, or break out lunch.
6) So, quite possibly it boils down for whom the race committee is setting the race course. Reaches are faster and definitely require a different skill set. For some designs, reaches can determine the more experienced, stronger crews, or allow some time on the race course for a cheese cracker and a sip of wine.
Everything has its place...
80's, 105's, j109's, j122, M24's, and m32's all love reaching triangles ---- so long as they are in front of the competition.
Quote from: Danelaw on April 23, 2010, 08:49:28 AM
I myself wonder about why the olympic (traingle windward leeward ) courses went away. This course selection would certainly make it easier on the larger boats who can't manouver like a J 22. Would any of the clubs be willing to employ this tried and true course layout for a major regatta?
Roy
I think that the HYC Olympic Circle went away because it was too costly (both $s and time) to maintain. Vandals frequently took / damaged the marks, shrimpers snagged them too.
From the stories I've heard, it was by-far the most fun and popular set-up around. I think if HYC thought about resurecting it, they'd have to jump through so many government hoops to get approvals to set up permanent structures that it would prove impractical.
PHRF numbers were, if I recall correctly, intended to handicap WRRWL ...
Back in the '90s, I remember several regattas or series in which half-an-alphabet of flags were run-up to sent the fleet around fixed-mark courses with 5 or 7 legs. There were a few more whatsits in the bay to round in those days; Y, S, & R marks at least, but I can tell ya for sure that those were long-a## hauls in a J22 or J24, sometimes with course lengths of 15-20 miles. The 'Art' of picking which mark to use for start-finish included anticipating wind shifts to allow for course change to another fixed mark. If the breeze got light, the committee could pick up anchor and shorten. On a brisk day, the second race might be a couple of 2-3 mile WLWL legs.
And maybe in keeping with the TSF - GBCA ethos back then, there was no need for chase boats, because only one boat was needed to set-up, start and finish, everybody else could race. All the mark distances and bearings between each other (and some pix) were listed in a table that xeroxed into the SIs. Those long reaching legs sometimes weren't much for passing sister boats, but they were good for stretching or closing on handicap differences. Sure, sometimes the reaches turned into fetches or runs, but that was just the luck of the day, and could be a big hint as to which side was favored on the next beat.
For one-design classes, other than the entertainment/hazard factors of carrying more sail than was advisable on the reaches, WL courses probably make for better racing. For the mixed fleets though, a couple of brisk reaches might draw out more cruisers than slogging windward and wallowing leeward, as many of the less 'racy' boats step along nicely on reaches.
... A couple of points about that, though ... There's a different set of safety hazards in rounding fixed marks. Especially with the big oilpatch and navigational objects , even the hard-core competitive boats tend to give the mark and each other a lot more elbow room, almost corinthianly at times. Nobody really wants themselves or anybody else to lose a rig or hang a keel. I've seen lots more of, umm, shall we call it "assertive" boathandling when rounding bouys, maybe because there's more opportunities to bail out with out damage if things get too crowded, but there's still some fiberglass crunches at times.
... Anyway, yeah, it's a lot more work for the chase boat to set out a wing mark, but with any luck it wouldn't need moving during a race. And splitting classes between sport (assy-sprit) and trad (symm-pole) boats gets most of the plane vs non-plane separated, so maybe running a WRRWL course or two should be considered ...
G4B