I just sailed on Kenai in Key West Race Week which was scored using the ORC rating system. I was very impressed with how it seemed to rate the races from heavy air at the beginning of the week to light air at the end of the week. I really wish we could move this direction on Galveston Bay. If you look at the results of the races it was very tight racing in almost every race (take away the result of Kenai in race 5 and 6, the three blade max prop wasn't folded and we were dog slow).
The system uses a 3 rating band for light, med and heavy air. The RC decides prior to the race which rating system will be used and can later change that if they deem the race was sailed in another wind speed band.
I would like to see us run an ORC only event on GB at some point this year to be able to get our feet wet.
Any thoughts??
I agree completely, but then I only feel that way because I understand how they come up with the numbers.
I'll pass on this thread!
Kevin, you have experienced what several of us have been trying to get people to understand... it becomes a more fair system. This is why I am using Yardstick on WNR... It is still a performanced based system, but it is what I have and I feel it is more fair than a single point system. What I have found is people are not used to the time-on-time format and get frustrated with having to know how many seconds/hour they owe vs second/mile. This comes down to the yacht clubs/PRO's choosing to have an ORC class available. The racers need to help push the R/Cs to include an ORC class. I suggest that "someone" consult the race PRO and request the class.
ORC would be great for Rum Races. The have ways to account for pursuit courses and different wind speeds, if I understand it correctly. If we ran that extra class this year.. would it be all spinnaker sprit boats? Would any symmetric spin boats bother?
Of course, we would have to specify the average wind speed before the start, and thereby specify the start times the day of the race.. which is sometimes difficult to do.
Hamburg II (spin non-sprit) would be interested.
This might be a good time and appropriate topic for some inter-club cooperation.
Maybe the RC chairs for Heald Bank, HYC Offshore and GBCA Offshore would consider coordinating efforts and offer ORC for spin classes?
I don't think offering ORC classes alongside PHRF classes will work. Our race fleet is so small to begin with, adding more classes we're going to end up with even smaller classes. I think a one day windward/leeward ORC only event would be ideal.
I'm not sure how this would work with the pursuit starts and the random reaching legs we have on rum races. To get a true measure on the rating system we need to run a w/l inshore race just as the certificate states. ORC fleet would not need to be split between sprit and non sprit classes. The ratings take that into account. The second place boat in KW was a sym boat. For that matter in PHRF w/l racing it doesn't make sense to separate sprit and non sprit boats either.
Kevin,
Great points... The offshore events are struggling as is. I think we could run a pursuit with ORC, just using the TOD rating. But, the problem is getting people to get a certificate. I do not know the percentage of boats racing a RR that have a valid certificate, but there is a large number of boats racing HMR that do not have a valid PHRFGB certificate. I think it would add a complication most RR-ers don't want to deal with. Many come out to have a nice sail with a large group of people and add a bit of competitiveness to it. Your point about the asym/sym at KWRW is one I have made since people were complaining about the asyms on RRs. The rating is designed to take the sail plan into effect. PHRFGB states "PHRF ratings are intended to be applied to closed course races. The system works well provided wind conditions affect all boats equally. It is not intended for races that are mostly off the wind or on the wind, or when changes in headsails are not permitted. Results from such races are ignored when setting PHRF handicaps." Before W/L courses were "the thing", we raced Triangle W/L (even Triangle W/L W/L) where J Mark was the windward mark. Then W/L courses came in, but many of the ratings didn't change. Some boats had benefited from this. I believe the Triangle W/L is the fairest way to rate a boat. But, this has to come from the race organizers. I've heard all kinds of arguments of why not to have reach legs, but they are part of racing. I think many of us have seen several lead changes on a WNR reach leg... There is a time and a place for every aspect of racing; pursuit, 1D, short courses, long courses, offshore, etc... Just look how complicated Rum Races have gotten... And I still think the Rum Races need to be pushed back to it's original start time...
Things I worry about. Probably wrong but I still worry.
Getting an ORC certificate is quite easy if you own and race an OD boat. Its not clear to me, since I have never had to do it, that its that easy when measurement or even weighing is required. Most J105 have weight certificates that specify a minimum weight. ORC agreed to use that in the HMR so that was not an issue, but I would worry that the cost of the measurement/weighing and the certificate itself might reduce the number of boats out for the current pursuit races. I am sure we can all afford the cost, but some may choose not to.
Its not clear to me that triangles or pursuit distances are any fairer then W/L. There are boats that reach like gangbusters but don't go to weather well. Until we learned how to dive deep the downwind J105 angles were much higher then virtually any well sailed symmetric. Hot angles were definitely a J105/J109 advantage.
In theory, running the Icicles or Rum Races under ORC should not be any different then running under PHRF. Single ORC numbers for TOD and TOT are available. My fear (worry) is that when a different wind condition based number is used for each race people will become disenchanted and stop racing. I agree that it seems complicated to change the number at the beginning of the race but I guess that could be posted on gbca.org for all to see. However, Icicle 3 saw winds change from 10-12 to 8-9 to 16+. Not sure how to come up with an average for that before the race.
Except for the fact that I drink to much, I love the Icicle and Rum races. I also like that fact that we have a club handicap system that results in a very large (by my standards) number of boats on the course.
See you all on Saturday. At least I hope I see you all on Saturday.
Quote from: STuma on January 25, 2017, 11:48:57 AM
Kevin,
Great points... The offshore events are struggling as is. I think we could run a pursuit with ORC, just using the TOD rating. But, the problem is getting people to get a certificate. I do not know the percentage of boats racing a RR that have a valid certificate, but there is a large number of boats racing HMR that do not have a valid PHRFGB certificate. I think it would add a complication most RR-ers don't want to deal with. Many come out to have a nice sail with a large group of people and add a bit of competitiveness to it. Your point about the asym/sym at KWRW is one I have made since people were complaining about the asyms on RRs. The rating is designed to take the sail plan into effect. PHRFGB states "PHRF ratings are intended to be applied to closed course races. The system works well provided wind conditions affect all boats equally. It is not intended for races that are mostly off the wind or on the wind, or when changes in headsails are not permitted. Results from such races are ignored when setting PHRF handicaps." Before W/L courses were "the thing", we raced Triangle W/L (even Triangle W/L W/L) where J Mark was the windward mark. Then W/L courses came in, but many of the ratings didn't change. Some boats had benefited from this. I believe the Triangle W/L is the fairest way to rate a boat. But, this has to come from the race organizers. I've heard all kinds of arguments of why not to have reach legs, but they are part of racing. I think many of us have seen several lead changes on a WNR reach leg... There is a time and a place for every aspect of racing; pursuit, 1D, short courses, long courses, offshore, etc... Just look how complicated Rum Races have gotten... And I still think the Rum Races need to be pushed back to it's original start time...
As a novice/casual racer, my viewpoint is more of what is relatively easy to understand and doesn't require a lot of money or time to get into. Like the Yardstick, ORC has a wind factor and I think that is good. Also ORC seems to have a casual component, as well as a more professional level.
Maybe we start with a class to register the Club certificate. And then a casual Sunday afternoon race using the icicle/Rum race course for interested parties on an off weekend, to test things out.
All I got out of Kevin's post was that he's decided to volunteer to be on the Galveston Bay Handicap/rating committee. -a.k.a. the PHRF COMMITTEE. Good move amigo!
And bring back olympic triangles!! Beats those boring W/L. For those of you to young to remember the good old IOR days:
https://www.google.com/search?q=olympic+triangle+course&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&imgil=ANTyvW2OII6-aM%253A%253B_eW2D5BvMvTocM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.bullseyesailing.org%25252Finstruct.htm&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ANTyvW2OII6-aM%253A%252C_eW2D5BvMvTocM%252C_&usg=__ehxQhHVPci4lESO59YbZ1DIULK8%3D&biw=1241&bih=654&ved=0ahUKEwidurOq7OfRAhUM4IMKHQFmCC8QyjcIOw&ei=7yGOWN2GD4zAjwSBzKH4Ag#imgrc=ANTyvW2OII6-aM%3A
Good times indeed!!
Boring W/l vs triangles? Triangles limit the passing lanes big time. Also makes racing a sym vs a sym inpossible. i don't think there is any venue in the country that runs triangles for keel boats. The distance/pursuit style racing is a different story but if we are going to up the racing on GB it's going to be with a measured rating rule using w/l format.
And no Jay I'm not volunteering for PHRF committee!
Quote from: hayesrigging on January 29, 2017, 04:41:09 PM
Boring W/l vs triangles? Triangles limit the passing lanes big time. Also makes racing a sym vs a sym inpossible. i don't think there is any venue in the country that runs triangles for keel boats. The distance/pursuit style racing is a different story but if we are going to up the racing on GB it's going to be with a measured rating rule using w/l format.
And no Jay I'm not volunteering for PHRF committee!
Agree if the wind is consistent but I beg to disagree. With with the wind shifts we have on the bay (have seen more often than I care to recall 80-120 degree shifts and then back again) reaching legs would provide more opportunities than straight W/L (icicle/rum race triangle tends to have a lot of position changes) and a bit more challenge/excitement/strategy...... And you are still left with a final W/L to consolidate/enhance your position. then again, what do I know?
Thoughts, opinions
If you have a 80-120 degree wind shift the race should be abandoned by the RC. Granted rum races are a different story but I don't recall that big of a shift on a rum race in a long time. Rum races aren't "true" triangles that you would have if set by a RC. The two reaching legs would be 135 degree tight spin reaches. This typically leads to follow the leader on boats of the same speed, no tactical manuevers, its straight line speed.
At my decrepit old age I have never race a real triangle. Lets do one.
Quote from: hayesrigging on January 29, 2017, 08:32:45 PM
If you have a 80-120 degree wind shift the race should be abandoned by the RC. Granted rum races are a different story but I don't recall that big of a shift on a rum race in a long time. Rum races aren't "true" triangles that you would have if set by a RC. The two reaching legs would be 135 degree tight spin reaches. This typically leads to follow the leader on boats of the same speed, no tactical manuevers, its straight line speed.
AJ, I'm with you. My thought would be a triangle with 1.5-2.0 nm legs. That would give a 10nm course.
A triangle W/L gives a whole different perspective of racing. In fact, that was the course that started racing in Galv Bay; from Kemah to J, to E to Kemah, to J and finish. I sailed this course growing up, and I brought it back in the early 90's (I think) on the Spring Series with the Level 70s group.
But, this discussion is much like a political one, no one really changes their mind; it just depends on what each side wants out of the race. I've had gripes and complaints about reaches on WNR and I've had high praises. And, I've seen many lead changes on the reach legs. It's a different style of sailing. Who recalls the deadly reach-to-reach jybe in 20 knots of wind? Now, THAT was skill!!! We as a club(s) have to be flexible. I think, the all W/L attitude is one large component that killed racing. It's great for 1-D racing, but becomes boring for the typical non-spinnaker boat out to have fun - the one who doesn't want to drop a lot of cash on a race boat. Sail upwind, turn, set pole, aim at mark, bob, bob, bob, turn back upwind. There is a reason it's called "dead downwind". Now, amazing enough, a large number of handicaps were determined when triangles were used, but how many have been adjusted since W/L course was introduced? We all know boats perform dramatically different from a jib/tight chute reach than dead downwind. Should there be different ratings - definately. But, it will be up to the PRO to determine course vs which rating used. It adds a complication many don't want to deal with.
With the wind shift, if the event is a national or world level, fair enough on abandoning because of a large wind shift. But, for 80% of the races here, I will let them run. Part of racing is knowing and predicting wind conditions. I have seen very few instances where a big wind shift heavily favors a boat where they rocket from the fleet. Come to think, I've done a nationals where the wind did shift 180 degrees and we kept racing. Luckily, we were just ahead of the clog at the mark. I've done a NOOD where the wind shifted 90 degrees and we kept racing.
And somehow, with a large shift, the lead dogs still seem to be the lead dogs...
Quote from: aj on January 29, 2017, 11:12:10 AM
And bring back olympic triangles!! Beats those boring W/L. For those of you to young to remember the good old IOR days:
https://www.google.com/search?q=olympic+triangle+course&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&imgil=ANTyvW2OII6-aM%253A%253B_eW2D5BvMvTocM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.bullseyesailing.org%25252Finstruct.htm&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ANTyvW2OII6-aM%253A%252C_eW2D5BvMvTocM%252C_&usg=__ehxQhHVPci4lESO59YbZ1DIULK8%3D&biw=1241&bih=654&ved=0ahUKEwidurOq7OfRAhUM4IMKHQFmCC8QyjcIOw&ei=7yGOWN2GD4zAjwSBzKH4Ag#imgrc=ANTyvW2OII6-aM%3A
Good times indeed!!
I'm going to have to agree with Kevin on this one. I was also at Key West competing in ORC. All the boats in the top 75% of the ORC Division were very well sailed, and except for the two J/122s, all of them were strikingly dissimilar designs. Planing and non-planing, symmetric and asymmetric, cutting edge designs vs. older designs, designed for the ORC rule vs. not, 30 - 45 feet.
We sailed in all three wind ranges (over 14, 9-14, less than 9) under ORC Club, and as a middle-of-the-pack speed boat, I had the luxury of watching Kenai, a Mills 43, and an XP44 just ahead, and the other J/122 and the Italia 9.98 just behind. If you ended up on the wrong side of the course, you were out of the top 4. If you got an hourglass, you were off the podium. If your prop didn't fold all the way, you went right to the bottom of the division. Otherwise, the well-sailed boats were finishing within seconds on corrected. Last race, top 3 boats were within 4 seconds.
I think first and foremost, people want a fair race. And I'm not talking about the guy who gripes that he can't win with 5 year old sails and a shaggy bottom. But Kenai (a well-prepared, impeccably sailed boat IMHO) shouldn't beat us every time the wind is honking, and likewise, our J/122 shouldn't win against Kenai every time in light air. Under PHRF, that would be the case more often than not. I found it interesting that under ORC Kenai owed us time over 14 and we owed them time under 9
Second, ideally I think people would like to competitively sail what they already have. Right? I mean, you bought your boat because you liked it and want to sail it. As a recovering 2-boat owner, I feel pretty strongly that it sucks to feel the need to buy and maintain a second boat just to feel like you're getting fair competition. If your dreamboat is a Whatever 42, then by george, wouldn't it be nice if you could race that competitively in any conditions?
With a little help in advance from the Race Committee Time-On-Time doesn't need to be daunting. What they did in Key West is send out a low, medium, and high air chart prior to the start of racing that told you how many seconds you needed to win by against each of your competitors per hour. So if, for example Boat X needed to beat Boat Y by 10 seconds per hour and the race went an hour and 10 minutes (i.e. 70 minutes), all you had to do is divide 10 seconds by 60 minutes and then multiply by 70 minutes to know how many second Boat X needed against Boat Y for that race. Pretty easy actually once you do it a few times.
It was by far the best, most competitive handicap racing I've ever been involved in. And it was cool to be able to see mistakes made on the course translate directly into finish order at the end of the race. Nothing's perfect, including one-design, but this is about as close as it gets. My 2 cents.
Years ago we did 2 and 2 1/2 mile courses. We started going to the 1 mile or shorter courses to run more races and separate the fleets. Maybe we should go back to the longer courses to be equable ??? The Performance Cup was 3 races, 6 legs at 2 miles or longer back in the 90's and the races took all day.. (Just an old guy remembering the days gone past).
Maybe, have a large triangle windward/leeward (Rum Race Course plus a W/L) on saturday, and W/L on Sunday?
Quote from: Tye Dyed Gary on February 13, 2017, 08:53:16 PM
Years ago we did 2 and 2 1/2 mile courses. We started going to the 1 mile or shorter courses to run more races and separate the fleets. Maybe we should go back to the longer courses to be equable ??? The Performance Cup was 3 races, 6 legs at 2 miles or longer back in the 90's and the races took all day.. (Just an old guy remembering the days gone past).
Quote from: STuma on February 15, 2017, 04:50:03 PM
Maybe, have a large triangle windward/leeward (Rum Race Course plus a W/L) on saturday, and W/L on Sunday?
;)
worth discussing i think. might make things a bit more interesting.
we have the standard w/l for most regattas, the square on a portion of the bay cup, triangle for the icicle/rum race, the star course & the conundrum setup.
maybe a circle course? 2-3 dropped marks between H & E & markers #1-2? this would be a pain in the arse for the r/c but would provide many challenges/options. could be entertaining & a test of everyones understanding of the rrs.
then again-what do i know?
I have thought about a slalom course... check everyone's quick jybes and tacks.... Make it timed runs... But, that's all we need is to add another event to the calendar. Years ago, we would do timed runs around the Olympic Circle.
FWIW:
I just chatted with Robin Team, whose J/122 TEAMWORK is a rather well known handicap racer being a multiple winner at both Charleston and Key West. Basically I wanted to know what the heck they thought they were doing racing a TP52 at Charleston...
He said the racing under ORC was good and provided close results even with boats as disparate as a J/122 and a TP52. Team said they missed correcting over the 52 by seconds in a couple of races, and that was the difference between 1st and 2nd in the regatta. As the slowest boat in their division, they got tacked on a bunch, which raises the issue that it's still important to band similarly rated boats together.
My comments here have nothing to do with practically, but as a mathematician I like the ORC idea. As computers get larger and
faster this approach to handicapping should become more and more accurate. I like racing under it but there will always
be aspects of a boat that it just cannot predict. Everyone should also remember that ORC gives a lot of latitude to the RC so one
may not be able to figure out how one placed at the end of any given race. I am surprised and pleased that it was well
accepted in the last HMR. I would like to see us do more ORC races.
BTW J D, I am still glowing about how good you guys were in your last racing endeavors. Keep it up. Maybe I should get
one of those 122s? Nah, but a 120 may be in my future. Getting to old to be of much use so something closer to a cruiser
might be a good choice.
Quote from: USA74 on April 25, 2017, 03:47:22 PM
FWIW:
I just chatted with Robin Team, whose J/122 TEAMWORK is a rather well known handicap racer being a multiple winner at both Charleston and Key West. Basically I wanted to know what the heck they thought they were doing racing a TP52 at Charleston...
He said the racing under ORC was good and provided close results even with boats as disparate as a J/122 and a TP52. Team said they missed correcting over the 52 by seconds in a couple of races, and that was the difference between 1st and 2nd in the regatta. As the slowest boat in their division, they got tacked on a bunch, which raises the issue that it's still important to band similarly rated boats together.
I for one, will never race under ORC again, but I'm glad most seem to like it. If I get a J133 I may change my mind.
Why?
Quote from: Greg A Casamayor on April 28, 2017, 01:28:24 PM
I for one, will never race under ORC again, but I'm glad most seem to like it. If I get a J133 I may change my mind.
I'd like to get an ORC rating for my boat, partially because it would give me some target numbers to shoot for, so I know how good or bad I'm sailing. That and I think ORC can be adjusted for different kinds of race courses. A lot of it can be handled by computers, too, so I don't think it becomes a real nightmare for RC. (Hope I don't come to regret that statement!)
Bob H.
Quote from: Greg A Casamayor on April 28, 2017, 01:28:24 PM
I for one, will never race under ORC again, but I'm glad most seem to like it. If I get a J133 I may change my mind.
\
If you are basing your view of ORC off of HMR, be sure to know the details of why the results looked funky.... Why not use a rating system that can adjust for wind conditions, course type and for the sail plan you have, instead of the single point box of what you should be. As we know, boats perform differently in different wind conditions. Do you feel the Soverel 33 rating is accurate in 5 knots of wind vs 15 knots of wind? I'm sure you would rather race against it in 15 rather than 5. With ORC, it won't matter.... if used correctly, boat's performance can be equated easier than a single point system.
Greg: Get a J/133! I think that's a great idea!
Scott: Let's make sure that we actually use the available sophistication of the ORC system. I've had a long exchange with Dobbs about the shortcomings of ORC in HMR and he actually agreed that we should have applied it differently. It's a learning process. Let's keep learning. It's all good!
The primary problem with the HMR scoring last year lay with the Performance Line selection. The proper scoring selection for this years HRM should be TIME on TIME. It does the best job of fairly handicapping an offshore race. The suggestion has been made to LYC and it is hoped they will use ToT. ORC suggests the scoring system.