Icicle Rating System

[Bee]

As I understand the current Icicle rating system, first place gets 5 points, 2nd gets 4 points, 3rd gets 3 points, 4th gets 2 points, 5th gets 1 point, and any other finisher who puts in his time gets 1 point.  Does that mean that the 5th place boat with 5 points in 5 races could be beaten by a boat who finished 8, 9, 10, 11, and 4th?  In other words could someone explain the actual rating system?

[Tye Dyed Gary]

Bee,
  Yes, you are correct on your understanding.   BUT, this goes back to past board members (myself included), failure to pass on and hand off instructions and resolutions that addressed these situations.  Example, April 2017, the board passed a new scoring for Icicles and Rum races. Basically, go 8 deep (less likely to have a tie) and give a point to everyone that sailed (for head count, plus get something for showing up vs. those that stayed at the dock).
   This was changed back to what we got for this Icicle. I blame myself for part of this for not doing a better job of handing off this information to the person that took my place on the board.
  I worried more about him knowing that he needed to turn off the CO2 valve INSIDE the keg refrigerator when changing kegs. The clubs in the old style taps that do not have a check valve and blows CO2 into the compartment when a tap is pulled.     

[Bee]

Thanks Gary, but this seems quite unfair to me.  If you are going to give everyone a point just for showing up I don't really see this as a series.  I finished with three 1's (not in the top 5) and a 3 to put me in 6th overall.  should have just been 3 points.

[BrianL]

How about the low point scoring system? with any boats that enter at least one race are ranked. all boats that DNF/DSQ/DNC receive last place points. So 1st gets one. Tenth gets 10. if there are 15 boats total in the class at the end, all the DNF/DSQ/DNC boats get 15 for those races.


Brian

[Tye Dyed Gary]

Brian,
  You are correct, that LOW POINT would work better and more accurate. The scoring that is used is just a hold over from the early 1990's when the TGIF started and later moved to Saturday, so more boats could come out to play. 

[Bee]

I agree.

How about the low point scoring system? with any boats that enter at least one race are ranked. all boats that DNF/DSQ/DNC receive last place points. So 1st gets one. Tenth gets 10. if there are 15 boats total in the class at the end, all the DNF/DSQ/DNC boats get 15 for those races.


Brian

[Tye Dyed Gary]

  I also agree that low point scoring would be more fair. BUT, you need to look at how the spinnaker classes were divided for last summer's Rum Races and this years Icicles. One class has 25 to 40 boats and the other with maybe 5 or 6 boats.
  To avoid this disparity in classes, maybe we should return to a Asymmetrical and Symmetrical Spinnaker classes vs over or under sail displacement area. This would even out the classes a little better, and not add another class. This would also have boats with the same aspects of sail competing against each other, vs what we have now, that favors asymmetrical spinnakers.
     

[cmay]

I admit I was skeptical of the SA/D split for the spin class when it was introduced. Looking back, I willingly admit I was wrong and think it worked well last year. If you think about it, it is the only method of splitting classes that we have ever used that is based on a piece of the underlying math of the rating rather than an arbitrary split based on sail shape (Sym/Asym) or sail attachment point (Sprit/non-sprit). Looking at finishing times last year, often the top finishers are pretty "bunched" and included both sym/asym mixed. Of course there were outliers, but overall it looked fairly balanced to me. Also as an example, for one of the icicles last month I went out on a brand new RS21 for one of the icicles, which we pushed the boat pretty hard (full plane one leg), and we finished a boat length behind a 40+ year old J24. That leads me to believe something is working pretty well.

I agree we may need to think about balancing the two classes a bit, but the disparity isn't nearly what Gary is suggesting. I looked at year over year participation by class over the winter, and average participation was around 50 boats in total, not in a given class. For the spin boats, the average count for the racing spin class was 11 boats with the racer/cruiser averaging 4. Again, that's a big disparity that we may need to adjust but I would argue we adjust by changing the sa/d split rather than going back to a Sym/Asym split.

The scoring discussion is interesting. I am generally a fan of low point, but there are a couple of differences with these races that make it difficult to do what Brian is suggesting. The biggest is that there is no formal registration, so we won't know on a given week who was DNC/DNF/DSQ. If we went with a formal registration and scoring, I fear that could get complicated and burdensome fairly quickly. The current electronic submission "honor system" looks to be working well, and is infinitely better and easier than the old paper-scribble method so I am hesitant to change that. So in the end, these are rum races and the spirit/idea is to keep them as simple to run and participate in as possible.  I believe we are all open to improving where we can, but only when it is practical in given the format.

Chris

[STuma]

  I also agree that low point scoring would be more fair. BUT, you need to look at how the spinnaker classes were divided for last summer's Rum Races and this years Icicles. One class has 25 to 40 boats and the other with maybe 5 or 6 boats.
  To avoid this disparity in classes, maybe we should return to a Asymmetrical and Symmetrical Spinnaker classes vs over or under sail displacement area. This would even out the classes a little better, and not add another class. This would also have boats with the same aspects of sail competing against each other, vs what we have now, that favors asymmetrical spinnakers.
     

the High point works best when all places are counted... High point is best with long series races with large variances in participation and it rewards placing better in a larger class.

When you state that the Racing Spinnaker class favors the asymmetricals, are you discounting the class was won by a J/24 this year... with the new class separation?

We are looking at making an adjustment to the scoring... we realize the challenges and working to build something substantial. stay tuned...

[Rmiller1]

Obviously, the solution is for all of you to sell your boats and buy J/24s 

[Tye Dyed Gary]

  The boat that won last years series had a special built spinnaker so he could compete against the A-kites (it is class legal, just built different from a standard symmetrical spinnaker layout). Why do you think many of the boats are going to A-kites for the rum races, and around the bay races, for their next new spinnaker. It's because they are mostly off the wind races. If the rum races were true windward/ leeward courses, there wouldn't be this question being raised. It is the sailing Aspect of the two types of spinnakers that causes the disparity, not the sail displacement. A asymmetrical spinnaker can sail 10 to 15 degrees closer to the wind on a reach then a symmetrical spinnaker.
 

[rademakerg]

I would note that the flatter spinnaker that Yikes! had was used only once in the 2019 Rum Race series.  Wind condition did not allow us to use more that that.

[STuma]

Gary, you're incorrect. Boats are converting to an a-kite because sailing with an a-kite is much easier to manage with limited crew. When I was on PHRF, we came up with the A-Kite matrix to help encourage people to race with a spinnaker when they have limited crew. What I have seen, many of the boats converting to an a-kite fall into the Racer/Cruiser Spinnaker Class. I'm sure there are a couple that are in the Racing Spinnaker Class, not not many. The thought that a Morgan 42 with an a-kite should compete comparatively with a sprited J Boat is ridiculous. If you have to jybe once, the benefit of an a-kite sailing closer to the wind loses it's benefit. Does an A-kite perform better at particular wind angles, yes, just as a symmetrical should perform better in some angles. As you are aware, a symmetrical spinnaker can sail 10 to 15 degree lower. You are right that if the rum races were W/L course, the question would not be asked because there would not be any more Rum Races... many people would not attend them. In the end, it is supposed to be a fun series with a fixed course.. therefore each race will be different. Tell me the wind and course, I'll tell you who should win. That's handicap racing.

[Bee]

For most boats, you are correct Scott. This is particularly true for boats that cannot be easily rotated to leeward when going downwind.  There are two instances in which you are not.  One is where one can get the boat rotated over to leeward when going downwind.  This id not easy when the boat is heavy. The other is when your kite is designed to do go much deeper then possible.  Gerhard's Saga is an example of a heavy boat that can actually go very deep with an a-Kite.

An a-Kite can be designed to make it possible and efficient to sail at 175 degrees TWA.  I had two (C&C Sailmakers)  and I proved that against a J35 and a J109 several times.  What is happening, as explained by Bruce Martin, is that the boat is efficient enough for the apparent wind to be at the proper angle for this. Essentially the apparent wind  is such that for all intents you are sailing at what appears to be 165 TWA. With such a sail, a 105 is efficient enough to do it.  At 12+ knots of wind, there were times in flat waves we could actually go absolutely dead down.  Quite sure you won't believe that and unfortunately I no longer have that kind of kite.  Later in the year it is likely I will have one.

In light air if you can get the boat dipping to leeward the kite rotates around to leeward and again you can go much deeper then one would expect.

You are correct relative to the early days of a-Kite design.  At that point the sailing angles were around 160 or 165.  Today that is no longer so true.