PHRF RATING AND RUM RACES

Big John · August 28, 2009, 05:05:56 PM

Quote from: JayZ on August 26, 2009, 11:11:35 AM

I think when the new PHRF website is finally up and running information will flow much better to the fleet. Currently the results of any appeal (or new ratings) should be noted in the minutes posted on the current PHRF website.

http://www.phrfgb.com/minutes.html

Any member of the PHRF fleet is welcome to attend the appeals meetings.

Jay Z
My issue is not that it was not posted, but that I had to find out about the fact that it was being considered AFTER it had already been done. Had I known it was being discussed, I would have been there.
J

hayesrigging · August 28, 2009, 08:58:43 PM

When PHRF-GB gets an appeal from someone that is appealing there own boat, there is no notice to the membership that such an appeal is going to be heard. If someone is appealing a rating of another boat then the owner of the boat being appealed is notified and is able to come to the meeting.

I was not at the meeting when this appeal was heard so I dont know the basis of the appeal.

Kevin Hayes

Big John · August 29, 2009, 11:29:12 AM

Thanks Kevin
I understand the procedure. I just wonder if there might not be other interested parties who might like to present alternate viewpoints (including data from races)other than the protester and protestee. Were the process perfect it would not matter, but it is not. In almost all other cases the existence of a protest appears in the minutes a couple of times before the decision. In this case, the only mention of it is an (erroneous) notation that it happened in a set of minutes that was in my recollection, at least a month late.

It is done, and if giving him another 3 seconds keeps him racing, then maybe we can afford to buy trophies for him. And maybe that will cause him to buy drinks for us... This may not be all bad..
j

Burns · August 29, 2009, 03:00:01 PM

The September is a designated appeals meeting. There are 3 each year and this will be the final one for 2009.

http://phrfgb.com/policies.html#appeals

JayZ · August 30, 2009, 07:41:55 PM

Gotcha and understood. Part of the point I was trying to make was that when the new website is up communication will be better coming from PHRF. I think it is a good idea to post any notice of appeal to the fleet.

Quote from: Big John on August 28, 2009, 05:05:56 PM
Quote from: JayZ on August 26, 2009, 11:11:35 AM

I think when the new PHRF website is finally up and running information will flow much better to the fleet. Currently the results of any appeal (or new ratings) should be noted in the minutes posted on the current PHRF website.

http://www.phrfgb.com/minutes.html

Any member of the PHRF fleet is welcome to attend the appeals meetings.

Jay Z
My issue is not that it was not posted, but that I had to find out about the fact that it was being considered AFTER it had already been done. Had I known it was being discussed, I would have been there.
J

Brad · August 31, 2009, 12:01:45 PM

I agree with John. If boats are having their ratings adjusted, the boats and the proposed adjustment (if known) should be on the website before the meeting so members can decide if they want to attend and provide additional insights.

This is also true when the PHRF Committee has their Fleet Review. If you know what boats are being discussed, why not let the membership know ahead of time as well?

Brad Robbins

tbroadhead · August 31, 2009, 02:34:52 PM

Also the way it is currently set up skippers wait until the last day to submit thier appeal. We would need to set a deadline for submission so we can notify the membership.

Brad · August 31, 2009, 07:22:01 PM

I believe an appeal has to be submitted 14 days in advance. Maybe we should just enforce the rules.

Brad

KevinBednar · August 31, 2009, 08:44:22 PM

I'm bowing out of this discussion. I know several of the PHRF-GB guys and I have a great deal of respect for them. I'm sure they adjusted Larry's rating because he presented a good case. I'm not sure if I speak for J105Bill but I know that the only reason I'd missed Parrot Tales' adjustment is that Stinger races class in the major regattas so I've not really needed to know that it had changed.

hayesrigging · September 01, 2009, 09:41:01 PM

My concern for posting and allowing members to come and dispute an appeal would be the time it would extend already lengthy meetings. The PHRF committee is voted on by the membeship to represent the membership.

Maybe allow a period of time before a new rating goes in effect and give competitors time to file an appeal to come before the comittee and state there reasoning. This way it would make someone do a little homework and not just show up at the meeting and complain about a rating being raised or lowered.

I just dont want to see a meeting were multiple boat owners show up to dispute a potential rating change and the owner appealing there rating being there as well and 3 hour debate break out.

Kevin Hayes

Big John · September 02, 2009, 01:42:29 PM

Quote from: hayesrigging on September 01, 2009, 09:41:01 PM
My concern for posting and allowing members to come and dispute an appeal would be the time it would extend already lengthy meetings. The PHRF committee is voted on by the membeship to represent the membership.

Maybe allow a period of time before a new rating goes in effect and give competitors time to file an appeal to come before the comittee and state there reasoning. This way it would make someone do a little homework and not just show up at the meeting and complain about a rating being raised or lowered.

I just dont want to see a meeting were multiple boat owners show up to dispute a potential rating change and the owner appealing there rating being there as well and 3 hour debate break out.

Kevin Hayes

It is a given that logic and discipline are not long suits in the sailboat rating business. I still believe that someone presenting facts should be heard from. I would be willing to see a procedure which made rating changes effective only after being posted for one month and no protest filed. I would also welcome the opportunity to present a priori written evidence in the form of race results, eye witness reports and other factual information with greater credibility than being said out loud at the Classic Cafe.

I would also like to request that the reporting of the meeting minutes be slightly less succinct. In this case it was so short that part of the boat type was left out. At least report the number of buckets of tears the owner cried, (to the nearest tenth liter) or some other justification.

I do appreciate your concern for an unbounded discussion, particularly among the rum-drinking public(ie most of us) . But that is the sin that comes with the virtue of freedom.

Borracho · September 02, 2009, 03:44:26 PM

What if the appeals process went like an Appraisal District protest?
1. First you go to an "arbitrator" who automatically offers you a 1 second/mile increase to your rating. You say not good enough, I'll take it to a panel of my peers! So you schedule a hearing with the panel.
2. The panel of your "peers" consists of three old retired guys that own motor boats, and don't know a thing about sailing, much less sailboat racing. But on behalf of the fleet (of which you are a member, by the way) they have an "expert", direct from the Classic bar, to advise them.
3. The panel pretty much believes every thing the "expert" says, and the "expert" says even though there's really no concrete basis for it, he thinks your rating should be reduced by 18 seconds/mile.
4. The panel agrees and your rating is changed.

Big John · September 03, 2009, 10:23:27 AM

Excellent
Let's put it to a vote.
We can rename the handicaping method. Call it TOF handicapping (for Three Old F_rts). Unfortunately we have to wait till they finish out their term on the PHRF board for some of the best candidates. And the Classic will provide the venue for all meetings. Oh, I guess that is what you meant. Excuse me.

J
(Wishing I had an anonymous screen name for posting stuff like this!!!)

BJSailor · September 03, 2009, 07:44:46 PM

Quote from: Big John on September 03, 2009, 10:23:27 AM
Excellent
Let's put it to a vote.
We can rename the handicaping method. Call it TOF handicapping (for Three Old F_rts). Unfortunately we have to wait till they finish out their term on the PHRF board for some of the best candidates. And the Classic will provide the venue for all meetings. Oh, I guess that is what you meant. Excuse me.

J
(Wishing I had an anonymous screen name for posting stuff like this!!!)

This is what happens when you don't have a Delete button for your posts when you've had way too many alcoholic beverages or are off your meds.

Perhaps you'd be interested in tossing your name in the hat to serve John? Then you could learn the process that PHRFGB follows, along with scores of other PHRF committees follow as directed by the National PHRF guidelines. Although I've never served (like many, I'm too opinionated to be as objective I guess) I've had some perspectives in the workings of PHRFGB. Those folks have a thankless job - as evidenced here. They should be thanked often and loudly for that they volunteer to do.

I could say "Walk a mile in my shoes". But then you'd have my shoes, I'd be barefoot, and you'd be a mile farther down the road.