ORC Rating System

Started by hayesrigging, January 23, 2017, 09:24:58 PM

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hayesrigging

I just sailed on Kenai in Key West Race Week which was scored using the ORC rating system.  I was very impressed with how it seemed to rate the races from heavy air at the beginning of the week to light air at the end of the week.  I really wish we could move this direction on Galveston Bay.  If you look at the results of the races it was very tight racing in almost every race (take away the result of Kenai in race 5 and 6, the three blade max prop wasn't folded and we were dog slow). 

The system uses a 3 rating band for light, med and heavy air.  The RC decides prior to the race which rating system will be used and can later change that if they deem the race was sailed in another wind speed band. 

I would like to see us run an ORC only event on GB at some point this year to be able to get our feet wet. 

Any thoughts??

Bee

I agree completely, but then I only feel that way because I understand how they come up with the numbers.

Jeff K

I'll pass on this thread! 
Who wasn't on the vang?

STuma

Kevin, you have experienced what several of us have been trying to get people to understand... it becomes a more fair system. This is why I am using Yardstick on WNR... It is still a performanced based system, but it is what I have and I feel it is more fair than a single point system. What I have found is people are not used to the time-on-time format and get frustrated with having to know how many seconds/hour they owe vs second/mile. This comes down to the yacht clubs/PRO's choosing to have an ORC class available. The racers need to help push the R/Cs to include an ORC class. I suggest that "someone" consult the race PRO and request the class.
cheers...
Scott

DarinK

ORC would be great for Rum Races.  The have ways to account for pursuit courses and different wind speeds, if I understand it correctly.  If we ran that extra class this year.. would it be all spinnaker sprit boats? Would any symmetric spin boats bother? 

Of course, we would have to specify the average wind speed before the start, and thereby specify the start times the day of the race.. which is sometimes difficult to do.

Hamburger No 1

Hamburg II (spin non-sprit) would be interested.

gwittich

This might be a good time and appropriate topic for some inter-club cooperation.
Maybe the RC chairs for Heald Bank, HYC Offshore and GBCA Offshore would consider coordinating efforts and offer ORC for spin classes?
Gerhard Wittich/sv Figaro

hayesrigging

I don't think offering ORC classes alongside PHRF classes will work.  Our race fleet is so small to begin with, adding more classes we're going to end up with even smaller classes.  I think a one day windward/leeward ORC only event would be ideal. 

I'm not sure how this would work with the pursuit starts and the random reaching legs we have on rum races.  To get a true measure on the rating system we need to run a w/l inshore race just as the certificate states.  ORC fleet would not need to be split between sprit and non sprit classes.  The ratings take that into account.  The second place boat in KW was a sym boat.  For that matter in PHRF w/l racing it doesn't make sense to separate sprit and non sprit boats either. 

STuma

Kevin,

Great points... The offshore events are struggling as is. I think we could run a pursuit with ORC, just using the TOD rating. But, the problem is getting people to get a certificate. I do not know the percentage of boats racing a RR that have a valid certificate, but there is a large number of boats racing HMR that do not have a valid PHRFGB certificate. I think it would add a complication most RR-ers don't want to deal with. Many come out to have a nice sail with a large group of people and add a bit of competitiveness to it. Your point about the asym/sym at KWRW is one I have made since people were complaining about the asyms on RRs. The rating is designed to take the sail plan into effect. PHRFGB states "PHRF ratings are intended to be applied to closed course races. The system works well provided wind conditions affect all boats equally. It is not intended for races that are mostly off the wind or on the wind, or when changes in headsails are not permitted. Results from such races are ignored when setting PHRF handicaps." Before W/L courses were "the thing", we raced Triangle W/L (even Triangle W/L W/L) where J Mark was the windward mark. Then W/L courses came in, but many of the ratings didn't change. Some boats had benefited from this. I believe the Triangle W/L is the fairest way to rate a boat. But, this has to come from the race organizers. I've heard all kinds of arguments of why not to have reach legs, but they are part of racing. I think many of us have seen several lead changes on a WNR reach leg... There is a time and a place for every aspect of racing; pursuit, 1D, short courses, long courses, offshore, etc... Just look how complicated Rum Races have gotten... And I still think the Rum Races need to be pushed back to it's original start time...
cheers...
Scott

Bee

Things I worry about.  Probably wrong but I still worry.

Getting an ORC certificate is quite easy if you own and race an OD boat.  Its not clear to me, since I have never had to do it, that its that easy when measurement or even weighing is required.  Most J105 have weight certificates that specify a minimum weight.  ORC agreed to use that in the HMR so that was not an issue, but I would worry that the cost of the measurement/weighing and the certificate itself might reduce the number of boats out for the current pursuit races. I am sure we can all afford the cost, but some may choose not to.

Its not clear to me that triangles or pursuit distances are any fairer then W/L.  There are boats that reach like gangbusters but don't go to weather well. Until we learned how to dive deep the downwind J105 angles were much higher then virtually any well sailed symmetric.  Hot angles were definitely a J105/J109 advantage.

In theory, running the Icicles or Rum Races under ORC should not be any different then running under PHRF.  Single ORC numbers for TOD and TOT are available.  My fear (worry) is that when a different wind condition based number is used for each race people will become disenchanted and stop racing.  I agree that it seems complicated to change the number at the beginning of the race but I guess that could be posted on gbca.org for all to see.  However, Icicle 3 saw winds change from 10-12 to 8-9 to 16+.  Not sure how to come up with an average for that before the race.

Except for the fact that I drink to much, I love the Icicle and Rum races.  I also like that fact that we have a club handicap system that results in a very large (by my standards) number of boats on the course.

See you all on Saturday. At least I hope I see you all on Saturday.

Quote from: STuma on January 25, 2017, 11:48:57 AM
Kevin,

Great points... The offshore events are struggling as is. I think we could run a pursuit with ORC, just using the TOD rating. But, the problem is getting people to get a certificate. I do not know the percentage of boats racing a RR that have a valid certificate, but there is a large number of boats racing HMR that do not have a valid PHRFGB certificate. I think it would add a complication most RR-ers don't want to deal with. Many come out to have a nice sail with a large group of people and add a bit of competitiveness to it. Your point about the asym/sym at KWRW is one I have made since people were complaining about the asyms on RRs. The rating is designed to take the sail plan into effect. PHRFGB states "PHRF ratings are intended to be applied to closed course races. The system works well provided wind conditions affect all boats equally. It is not intended for races that are mostly off the wind or on the wind, or when changes in headsails are not permitted. Results from such races are ignored when setting PHRF handicaps." Before W/L courses were "the thing", we raced Triangle W/L (even Triangle W/L W/L) where J Mark was the windward mark. Then W/L courses came in, but many of the ratings didn't change. Some boats had benefited from this. I believe the Triangle W/L is the fairest way to rate a boat. But, this has to come from the race organizers. I've heard all kinds of arguments of why not to have reach legs, but they are part of racing. I think many of us have seen several lead changes on a WNR reach leg... There is a time and a place for every aspect of racing; pursuit, 1D, short courses, long courses, offshore, etc... Just look how complicated Rum Races have gotten... And I still think the Rum Races need to be pushed back to it's original start time...

BrianL

As a novice/casual racer, my viewpoint is more of  what is relatively easy to understand and doesn't require a lot  of money or time to get into. Like the Yardstick, ORC has a wind factor and I think that is good. Also ORC seems to have a casual component, as well as a more professional level.
      Maybe we start with a class to register the Club certificate. And then a casual Sunday afternoon race using the icicle/Rum race course for interested parties on an off weekend, to test things out.

JayZ

All I got out of Kevin's post was that he's decided to volunteer to be on the Galveston Bay Handicap/rating committee.   -a.k.a. the PHRF COMMITTEE.   Good move amigo!
Jay Zittrer
s/v BANJO GIRL


hayesrigging

Boring W/l vs triangles?   Triangles limit the passing lanes big time.  Also makes racing a sym vs a sym inpossible.  i don't think there is any venue in the country that runs triangles for keel boats.  The distance/pursuit style racing is a different story but if we are going to up the racing on GB it's going to be with a measured rating rule using w/l format. 

And no Jay I'm not volunteering for PHRF committee! 

aj

Quote from: hayesrigging on January 29, 2017, 04:41:09 PM
Boring W/l vs triangles?   Triangles limit the passing lanes big time.  Also makes racing a sym vs a sym inpossible.  i don't think there is any venue in the country that runs triangles for keel boats.  The distance/pursuit style racing is a different story but if we are going to up the racing on GB it's going to be with a measured rating rule using w/l format. 

And no Jay I'm not volunteering for PHRF committee!

Agree if the wind is consistent but I beg to disagree.  With with the wind shifts we have on the bay (have seen more often than I care to recall 80-120 degree shifts and then back again) reaching legs would provide more opportunities than straight W/L (icicle/rum race triangle tends to have a lot of position changes) and a bit more challenge/excitement/strategy......  And you are still left with a final W/L to consolidate/enhance your position.  then again, what do I know?

Thoughts, opinions