ORC Rating System

hayesrigging · January 29, 2017, 08:32:45 PM

If you have a 80-120 degree wind shift the race should be abandoned by the RC. Granted rum races are a different story but I don't recall that big of a shift on a rum race in a long time. Rum races aren't "true" triangles that you would have if set by a RC. The two reaching legs would be 135 degree tight spin reaches. This typically leads to follow the leader on boats of the same speed, no tactical manuevers, its straight line speed.

Bee · January 31, 2017, 08:36:12 PM

At my decrepit old age I have never race a real triangle. Lets do one.

Quote from: hayesrigging on January 29, 2017, 08:32:45 PM
If you have a 80-120 degree wind shift the race should be abandoned by the RC. Granted rum races are a different story but I don't recall that big of a shift on a rum race in a long time. Rum races aren't "true" triangles that you would have if set by a RC. The two reaching legs would be 135 degree tight spin reaches. This typically leads to follow the leader on boats of the same speed, no tactical manuevers, its straight line speed.

STuma · February 01, 2017, 04:09:47 PM

AJ, I'm with you. My thought would be a triangle with 1.5-2.0 nm legs. That would give a 10nm course.

A triangle W/L gives a whole different perspective of racing. In fact, that was the course that started racing in Galv Bay; from Kemah to J, to E to Kemah, to J and finish. I sailed this course growing up, and I brought it back in the early 90's (I think) on the Spring Series with the Level 70s group.

But, this discussion is much like a political one, no one really changes their mind; it just depends on what each side wants out of the race. I've had gripes and complaints about reaches on WNR and I've had high praises. And, I've seen many lead changes on the reach legs. It's a different style of sailing. Who recalls the deadly reach-to-reach jybe in 20 knots of wind? Now, THAT was skill!!! We as a club(s) have to be flexible. I think, the all W/L attitude is one large component that killed racing. It's great for 1-D racing, but becomes boring for the typical non-spinnaker boat out to have fun - the one who doesn't want to drop a lot of cash on a race boat. Sail upwind, turn, set pole, aim at mark, bob, bob, bob, turn back upwind. There is a reason it's called "dead downwind". Now, amazing enough, a large number of handicaps were determined when triangles were used, but how many have been adjusted since W/L course was introduced? We all know boats perform dramatically different from a jib/tight chute reach than dead downwind. Should there be different ratings - definately. But, it will be up to the PRO to determine course vs which rating used. It adds a complication many don't want to deal with.

With the wind shift, if the event is a national or world level, fair enough on abandoning because of a large wind shift. But, for 80% of the races here, I will let them run. Part of racing is knowing and predicting wind conditions. I have seen very few instances where a big wind shift heavily favors a boat where they rocket from the fleet. Come to think, I've done a nationals where the wind did shift 180 degrees and we kept racing. Luckily, we were just ahead of the clog at the mark. I've done a NOOD where the wind shifted 90 degrees and we kept racing.

And somehow, with a large shift, the lead dogs still seem to be the lead dogs...

Quote from: aj on January 29, 2017, 11:12:10 AM
And bring back olympic triangles!! Beats those boring W/L. For those of you to young to remember the good old IOR days:

https://www.google.com/search?q=olympic+triangle+course&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&imgil=ANTyvW2OII6-aM%253A%253B_eW2D5BvMvTocM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.bullseyesailing.org%25252Finstruct.htm&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ANTyvW2OII6-aM%253A%252C_eW2D5BvMvTocM%252C_&usg=__ehxQhHVPci4lESO59YbZ1DIULK8%3D&biw=1241&bih=654&ved=0ahUKEwidurOq7OfRAhUM4IMKHQFmCC8QyjcIOw&ei=7yGOWN2GD4zAjwSBzKH4Ag#imgrc=ANTyvW2OII6-aM%3A

Good times indeed!!

USA74 · February 13, 2017, 05:28:29 PM

I'm going to have to agree with Kevin on this one. I was also at Key West competing in ORC. All the boats in the top 75% of the ORC Division were very well sailed, and except for the two J/122s, all of them were strikingly dissimilar designs. Planing and non-planing, symmetric and asymmetric, cutting edge designs vs. older designs, designed for the ORC rule vs. not, 30 - 45 feet.

We sailed in all three wind ranges (over 14, 9-14, less than 9) under ORC Club, and as a middle-of-the-pack speed boat, I had the luxury of watching Kenai, a Mills 43, and an XP44 just ahead, and the other J/122 and the Italia 9.98 just behind. If you ended up on the wrong side of the course, you were out of the top 4. If you got an hourglass, you were off the podium. If your prop didn't fold all the way, you went right to the bottom of the division. Otherwise, the well-sailed boats were finishing within seconds on corrected. Last race, top 3 boats were within 4 seconds.

I think first and foremost, people want a fair race. And I'm not talking about the guy who gripes that he can't win with 5 year old sails and a shaggy bottom. But Kenai (a well-prepared, impeccably sailed boat IMHO) shouldn't beat us every time the wind is honking, and likewise, our J/122 shouldn't win against Kenai every time in light air. Under PHRF, that would be the case more often than not. I found it interesting that under ORC Kenai owed us time over 14 and we owed them time under 9

Second, ideally I think people would like to competitively sail what they already have. Right? I mean, you bought your boat because you liked it and want to sail it. As a recovering 2-boat owner, I feel pretty strongly that it sucks to feel the need to buy and maintain a second boat just to feel like you're getting fair competition. If your dreamboat is a Whatever 42, then by george, wouldn't it be nice if you could race that competitively in any conditions?

With a little help in advance from the Race Committee Time-On-Time doesn't need to be daunting. What they did in Key West is send out a low, medium, and high air chart prior to the start of racing that told you how many seconds you needed to win by against each of your competitors per hour. So if, for example Boat X needed to beat Boat Y by 10 seconds per hour and the race went an hour and 10 minutes (i.e. 70 minutes), all you had to do is divide 10 seconds by 60 minutes and then multiply by 70 minutes to know how many second Boat X needed against Boat Y for that race. Pretty easy actually once you do it a few times.

It was by far the best, most competitive handicap racing I've ever been involved in. And it was cool to be able to see mistakes made on the course translate directly into finish order at the end of the race. Nothing's perfect, including one-design, but this is about as close as it gets. My 2 cents.

Tye Dyed Gary · February 13, 2017, 08:53:16 PM

Years ago we did 2 and 2 1/2 mile courses. We started going to the 1 mile or shorter courses to run more races and separate the fleets. Maybe we should go back to the longer courses to be equable

The Performance Cup was 3 races, 6 legs at 2 miles or longer back in the 90's and the races took all day.. (Just an old guy remembering the days gone past).

STuma · February 15, 2017, 04:50:03 PM

Maybe, have a large triangle windward/leeward (Rum Race Course plus a W/L) on saturday, and W/L on Sunday?

Quote from: Tye Dyed Gary on February 13, 2017, 08:53:16 PM
Years ago we did 2 and 2 1/2 mile courses. We started going to the 1 mile or shorter courses to run more races and separate the fleets. Maybe we should go back to the longer courses to be equable The Performance Cup was 3 races, 6 legs at 2 miles or longer back in the 90's and the races took all day.. (Just an old guy remembering the days gone past).

aj · February 15, 2017, 08:58:06 PM

Quote from: STuma on February 15, 2017, 04:50:03 PM
Maybe, have a large triangle windward/leeward (Rum Race Course plus a W/L) on saturday, and W/L on Sunday?

worth discussing i think. might make things a bit more interesting.

we have the standard w/l for most regattas, the square on a portion of the bay cup, triangle for the icicle/rum race, the star course & the conundrum setup.

maybe a circle course? 2-3 dropped marks between H & E & markers #1-2? this would be a pain in the arse for the r/c but would provide many challenges/options. could be entertaining & a test of everyones understanding of the rrs.

then again-what do i know?

STuma · February 16, 2017, 04:41:50 PM

I have thought about a slalom course... check everyone's quick jybes and tacks.... Make it timed runs... But, that's all we need is to add another event to the calendar. Years ago, we would do timed runs around the Olympic Circle.

USA74 · April 25, 2017, 03:47:22 PM

FWIW:

I just chatted with Robin Team, whose J/122 TEAMWORK is a rather well known handicap racer being a multiple winner at both Charleston and Key West. Basically I wanted to know what the heck they thought they were doing racing a TP52 at Charleston...

He said the racing under ORC was good and provided close results even with boats as disparate as a J/122 and a TP52. Team said they missed correcting over the 52 by seconds in a couple of races, and that was the difference between 1st and 2nd in the regatta. As the slowest boat in their division, they got tacked on a bunch, which raises the issue that it's still important to band similarly rated boats together.

Bee · April 26, 2017, 07:30:18 PM

My comments here have nothing to do with practically, but as a mathematician I like the ORC idea. As computers get larger and
faster this approach to handicapping should become more and more accurate. I like racing under it but there will always
be aspects of a boat that it just cannot predict. Everyone should also remember that ORC gives a lot of latitude to the RC so one
may not be able to figure out how one placed at the end of any given race. I am surprised and pleased that it was well
accepted in the last HMR. I would like to see us do more ORC races.

BTW J D, I am still glowing about how good you guys were in your last racing endeavors. Keep it up. Maybe I should get
one of those 122s? Nah, but a 120 may be in my future. Getting to old to be of much use so something closer to a cruiser
might be a good choice.

Quote from: USA74 on April 25, 2017, 03:47:22 PM
FWIW:

I just chatted with Robin Team, whose J/122 TEAMWORK is a rather well known handicap racer being a multiple winner at both Charleston and Key West. Basically I wanted to know what the heck they thought they were doing racing a TP52 at Charleston...

He said the racing under ORC was good and provided close results even with boats as disparate as a J/122 and a TP52. Team said they missed correcting over the 52 by seconds in a couple of races, and that was the difference between 1st and 2nd in the regatta. As the slowest boat in their division, they got tacked on a bunch, which raises the issue that it's still important to band similarly rated boats together.

Greg A Casamayor · April 28, 2017, 01:28:24 PM

I for one, will never race under ORC again, but I'm glad most seem to like it. If I get a J133 I may change my mind.

Bee · April 28, 2017, 02:25:05 PM

Why?

Quote from: Greg A Casamayor on April 28, 2017, 01:28:24 PM
I for one, will never race under ORC again, but I'm glad most seem to like it. If I get a J133 I may change my mind.

Bob H · June 04, 2017, 04:58:44 PM

I'd like to get an ORC rating for my boat, partially because it would give me some target numbers to shoot for, so I know how good or bad I'm sailing. That and I think ORC can be adjusted for different kinds of race courses. A lot of it can be handled by computers, too, so I don't think it becomes a real nightmare for RC. (Hope I don't come to regret that statement!)

Bob H.

STuma · June 05, 2017, 04:55:23 PM

Quote from: Greg A Casamayor on April 28, 2017, 01:28:24 PM
I for one, will never race under ORC again, but I'm glad most seem to like it. If I get a J133 I may change my mind.

\
If you are basing your view of ORC off of HMR, be sure to know the details of why the results looked funky.... Why not use a rating system that can adjust for wind conditions, course type and for the sail plan you have, instead of the single point box of what you should be. As we know, boats perform differently in different wind conditions. Do you feel the Soverel 33 rating is accurate in 5 knots of wind vs 15 knots of wind? I'm sure you would rather race against it in 15 rather than 5. With ORC, it won't matter.... if used correctly, boat's performance can be equated easier than a single point system.

Hamburger No 1 · June 07, 2017, 05:00:32 PM

Greg: Get a J/133! I think that's a great idea!
Scott: Let's make sure that we actually use the available sophistication of the ORC system. I've had a long exchange with Dobbs about the shortcomings of ORC in HMR and he actually agreed that we should have applied it differently. It's a learning process. Let's keep learning. It's all good!