PHRF Spinnaker vs Cruising Spin vs ORC Spin

[Nicole]

I am seeing a push for everyone to go to the ORC class as PHRF spinnaker seems to be disappearing from the options for certain regattas. The options for the cruisers are to go to the Club Handicap Spinnaker class or ORC IF you have a certificate. Club handicap, I thought, initially was to encourage newer boats to enter into racing then you would graduate as some would say into the PHRF classes. Then there was the racer/cruiser green flag class which lasted briefly and also disappeared. Now PHRF spinnaker is not an option for what is to be the Premier regatta for GBCA. I know of at least 3 boats that will not be entering because of this. Racing a cruiser vs a J-Boat has never been a popular option and we are not interested in the club handicap class. PHRF donates to GBCA and supports all racing in the bay but now I can't race under that handicap. So I am going to throw this out there for discussion. I recently raced with LYC and we had a decent sized class even with an ORC class. This change is not something I am personally fond of.

Anyone else have thoughts on this shift?

[Bob H]

I'd also like to see a PHRF Spin class. I would even like to see a return of the racer/cruiser classification.

[shawn.vail]

Nicole and Bob
PHRF has been a good class for a long time and i do not want to see it go away.  We need more boats out there not less. To try to get everyone lumped into ORC does not cut it for me. Boats not racing should get some attention. I am hearing about the extra money that people do not want to spend. I see this as a step backward and do not want to race against lighter faster boats.

[shawn.vail]

Race was canceled not enough boats....we actually have a performance cup trophy from 2016.

Let hear some noise so we can get back to racing.

[shawn.vail]

Hey go look at Bay cup 1.  The last time we were all out there. There were more PHRF boats than ORC boats.  Those are real numbers from a recent race.  If you drop over half the fleet i could see how it would be hard to race. I have nothing bad to say about ORC. I just think excluding boats is bad for racing.

[shawn.vail]

And for the record i started Wednesday nights on a J 22 and ended up on a J 24 "On the Edge" with Steve Press.  Had a blast we got first place for the series.  So i do really do have friends that have J boats....

[Larlaeb]

I think a change away from PHRF would be a mistake.  I think it would result in less participation.  In my limited experience, ORC is a good system but ONLY if accurate measurement and verification is readily available. Also more care would need to be taken with ratings adjustments regarding wind strength etc.  This would require more effort and manpower than seems to be currently available.  Just my 2 cents.

[shawn.vail]

Thank you we need help on this one.

[derklauer]

As someone who has been racing in the area for about the past 15 years either on OPB or mine (j80, o30). I stopped almost immediately after the decision was made to split the fleets into PHRF and ORC the classes effectively halved overnight. That was never going to work they are competing handicap systems. I do not want a 22 or 105 so handicap racing is what it is.

I still have a boat here, and for the last 2 years I've been watching the fleet sizes, and considering getting back in to racing, but the numbers are getting worse. I'm not going to consistently enter as I had in the past to race against 2-4 boats.

There are not enough boats on the bay to support multiple handicaps. Pick one or the other and accept the trade off in the systems or watch the numbers continue to dwindle.

[shawn.vail]

Thanks for chipping in
I am ok with one handicap system as long as there is a displacement class. Boats limited to hull speed and those that can double that number.  I am an engineer and fluid mechanics was my favorite class. There is not enough math to cover the difference.  In the early 90's Doug Logan put a prototype in the water and on the first rum it did 12 to 15 knots. We are in 2024 and the technology is in several designs.  They did it with a flat bottom, light weight, and big sail area.
(practical sailor article)

The boat I race on will never see those speeds.  It was built before the 90's.  Today we have foiling boats should we compete with them?  What's their handicap?

[shawn.vail]

I love one design because the boats are identical, measured, and weighed.  Any weight added is fiber glassed into the hull.  Crew is weighed and limited.  This is pure racing.  After that i would group boats for displacement racing less than 10 knots hull speed. Then the boats that boat speed exceed hull speed downwind 10 to 20 knots@ about 120 degrees. Then we can add 20+ if needed.

Normally the one designs get their own class and we keep out of their way. This dropping classes and grouping boats together has me concerned.

[Tye Dyed Gary]

  I am not against ORC being added to some regattas, but it should be administered as designed. That means accurate wind readings to adjust for the correct rating for each given race. It should not be a replacement for PHRF (as flawed as it is).
  As for the Racer/Cruiser class, it has its place but not the way it was designed for the Rum Races a short while back. The over/under of sail area vs displacement was too arbitrary, it forced me to sail against boats with two and three time the waterline and sail area.
  As for the cruising club handy cap. I agree it is a good way to get novice sailors into racing. But, it should only be for a limited time (say 2 years at most) and it should be adjusted after each race/regatta as designed by J. Kevin Box. If you placed in say a Rum Race, your rating was adjusted down, or if you came in last it was adjusted up. Forcing you to be a better racing sailor and learn the rules and tactics.     

[Mark]

As discussed in the prior posts - ORC is not for everyone. ORC should be used when there are enough boats to make a class. This usually happens in our Weekend regattas on the bay. There are many factors that go into the "rating" number that an ORC boat will use for any single race - be it a single long day or overnight race. As most of the GBCA races are "pursuit" style and use the same rating number for all races - that will defeat the basic goal of ORC which is the determine the "rating" by using wind velocity and wind angles that the boats sail during the race.

Mark Matthews

[WildRover]

If you haven't already seen it, check out the 4 episode series that the Storm trysail Club just put out on ORC.   Its not as intimidating as it sounds and its WAY MORE accurate than other rating rules.  Here's the link to the first episode on youtube.

https://youtu.be/ezZkzGqXEVs?si=AnixzKIy6Q6FBR4t

[shawn.vail]

Thank you there is room on the bay for everyone. ORC and PHRF Please get all the boats out there and talk up the racing.