Harvest Moon PHRF categories?

[Andrea]

Uh, what am I up to now, Part 3?

Politics? 

Stinger entered the Cruising Spin fleet in 2009 and won the Commodore's Trophy.  Top three boats were J105 Stinger, C & C 121 Parrot Tales, and Liquid Courage (don't know what kind of boat).  For line honors, the finish was J105, J35, and the C&C 121.  Its worth noting that we did this without our genoa---forgot it on the dock---so I think it was the boat that actually won it and not so much our wonderfful skill.  Andrea told me that hence for and forever more J105's would be considered sport boats.  I believe they are so defined by PHRFGB as well, but have never checked.  BTW, Stinger's weight certificate shows 8,850#, but displacement is given as 7,750#.

My friend Bee and I, both of us having passed our 60th birthdays, occasionally have memory lapses which seem to come more frequently with every birthday.   I don't think I ever told Bee that a J105 was now going to be a Sport boat, but I did tell him we would be writing some new rules to avoid discouraging fledgling spinnaker flying cruisers who were considering joining a spinnaker fleet but feared racing against experienced PHRF-GB spin racers.

In 2009, after giving ORC Club a fair try for a few years, Bee found the rating system to be unfair to J boats.  The C&C 121 ParrotTale's owner found the rating system unfair to that newer design as well.  Having sailed, and raced, on both boats, I cannot fault either skipper for his opinion.  ORC Club, like PHRF, was not PHRFect, and boats that did not follow their limitations on spinnaker sizes (for example) got penalized unfairly.  So in 2009, a handful of discouraged racers opted to move into the cruising fleet where PHRF type ratings were still being used.

After trouncing the Cruising Spinnaker Fleet in 2009, no one felt worse about his victory than Bee himself, and he vowed he would never race in the cruising fleet again.  And to encourage future cruising spinnaker sailors, we modified the following year's cruising class rules to limit the fleet to the more typical cruising spinnaker boat;  we added restrictions on spinnaker size and said that the spinnaker tack point could not exceed 125% of "J".   At the same time, we offered a PHRF Spinnaker division within the racing fleet for those boats who did not feel they had a fair chance under ORC Club.  Both Stinger and Parrottales opted to race in the newly created PHRF spinnaker class, although that made them ineligible for the overall racing spinnaker fleet trophy, "The Bacardi Cup" which was scored under ORC Club at that time.  A year or so later, we gave up on ORC Club and moved toward using PHRF-like ratings for all fleets including the Bacardi racers.

[Andrea]

It is perfectly clear where my boat will race, so no real point in me contacting Andrea.  We are a sport boat from bottom to top although not as extreme as the Viper. 

I don't want to discourage you from entering, but I do not think your boat falls into the Sport Boat definition.  Under the rules as they are currently written, if a Melges decides to race, it would race in the Sport Boat Fleet for the Bacardi Superior trophy against the Santa Cruz, and maybe against an Olsen 30 or Hobie 33 if they should decide to race.  I have not checked the numbers so I'm not absolutely certain they qualify either and I've already admitted my memory has its flaws so feel free to correct me if their SA/D is not greater than 23 or their D/L is not less than 125.

[Andrea]

I was trying to figure that whole thing out the other day as well.  Our Ericson 39 is 314 D/L and per the instructions I guess I could ask to go to the Heavy, but I was planning on just registering PHRF Spin. 

Funny analysis of the SC 50, last years ULDB is now a heavy cruiser! 

Chris

You are correct that you have the option of going either way.  Note above the Santa Cruz was mis-classified but has now moved into the right fleet.  So you get two gold stars for reading the not uncomplicated rules.

[Andrea]

Walter, you registered for PHRF Spin.  Why that class and not PHRF Heavy?

Justin,
Per the NOR:
3.11 Sport Boats, as defined by PHRF-GB, shall compete in the Sport Boat "Bacardi Superior" division only. PHRF Spinnaker boats with displacement-to-length ratios over 325 shall compete in the Heavy Displacement "Bacardi Oak Heart" division only; other PHRF Spinnaker boats with displacement-to-length ratios between 300 and 325 may race in the Heavy Displacement division at the discretion of the Race Committee.

I didn't see the definition of "displacement-to-length ratio" in the NOR, but used the calculator link elsewhere on the website. The calculator uses the following:

Formula Disp/WL Ratio=(Disp/2240)/((LWL * 0.01)cubed)

Using that formula the calculator determines the J/40 is a "moderate cruiser" which sounds about right. The J105 would be a "performance cruiser".

  Yeah.  Someone else was able to sort through the rules!

[gadangit]

I was trying to figure that whole thing out the other day as well.  Our Ericson 39 is 314 D/L and per the instructions I guess I could ask to go to the Heavy, but I was planning on just registering PHRF Spin. 

Funny analysis of the SC 50, last years ULDB is now a heavy cruiser! 

Chris

You are correct that you have the option of going either way.  Note above the Santa Cruz was mis-classified but has now moved into the right fleet.  So you get two gold stars for reading the not uncomplicated rules.

Thanks for the gold stars!  I hand them out on the boat, rarely do I receive them.  You have a thankless job, keep up the good work!

Chris

[Bee]

The problem with all this is that all boats perform differently on the wind versus off the wind.  As most of you know, I am not a very good sailor.  Karl deHam would tell you I am the biggest looser on the Bay.  I won't argue that,  but I do know that a J70 will have difficulty staying with me in most conditions upwind but will destroy me in those same conditions downwind.  The FT 10 ONO is another example of this.  Upwind its kind of an even match, but downwind its another story. On the other hand Stinger is stable as a rock in 28 knots and usually averaging on the order of 13 knots.  Yeah, that generates big smiles. Oh, and sorry Keith but at 16 knots for 6 minutes in flat water in the bay its hard to argue with me that she is not planing.

On the other hand, Keith is right when he says a C&C 30 should rate 80 upwind and 12 downwind.  Pedro's Pingo is similar.  Upwind with the right crew on Stinger,  he cannot stay with me under most conditions.  He is a superb sailor and a wonderful fellow to sail with, but I would need a PRO to be competitive. Downwind, regardless of who I have on board,  there is not much I can do to stay with him.  In the right conditions a J80 has similar performance characteristics. Thus, I think its safe to conclude "Its the conditions and the boat stupid."

I wish it was possible to  come up with a rating system that takes all this into consideration but I suspect that's not possible. Too big of a mathematical and political problem.  If you average Ketih's 80 and 12 you get a number like 46.  That's roughly what a J111 or J122 should rate so your saying a J111 and the C&C 30 should be rated the same.  I would argue that its much more complicated then that so, no, that simple average will not work. I would also guess that there would be a lot of "discussion" on exactly what that number should be.

What to do?  Who knows.  O. J. Young has won the HMR more times then most of you guys are alive.  I don't think he has ever done this on a sport boat.  A couple of years ago, Stinger was the 6th monohull to cross the finish line.  That meant we handicapped over a couple of J120's, a J44 and some other equally fast boats we probably should not have finished ahead of.  O. J. beat us all on a Whitby 42.  I think this says that in addition to great ratings you need to have someone pay a great deal of attention to boat preparation, sails, and every other detail you can think of.

Sometimes even the best cannot bridge the gap.  In the 2012 J105 North American's in San Diego, non other then Dennis Connor finished third.  His prep of the boat (hull #3) included getting rid of all instruments up the mast and any weight he could reduce below. DC's Pholly was absolutely perfectly peeped and the best American Sailor in the last 50 years could still not take first.  BTW, yours truly had the distinction of using the facilities in the stall next tom him one morning. 

I think LYC should just split the boats into PHRF classes and let fly.  No one is going to remember who we were in 100 years anyway.  The HMR is a wonderful way to race offshore and have a great time in the process.  Its not clear that Stinger is going to win this anytime soon, but as long as possible she will keep trying. If I can just stop puking at midnight every HMR will become very special.

BTW, this year is shaping up to have 6 J105's on the line.  There will be three from Corpus and hopefully three form LYC.  I will keep my fingers crossed for 7.

Rum makes you dumb but its all  still  fun.

[Bee]

My friend Bee and I, both of us having passed our 60th birthdays, occasionally have memory lapses which seem to come more frequently with every birthday.   I don't think I ever told Bee that a J105 was now going to be a Sport boat, but I did tell him we would be writing some new rules to avoid discouraging fledgling spinnaker flying cruisers who were considering joining a spinnaker fleet but feared racing against experienced PHRF-GB spin racers.

I will accept the memory loss issues but I do remember knowing that somehow I was thrown out of the cruising cup class.  I think you did the proper thing there. You are also still a lot better looking and a lot younger then yours truly.

In 2009, after giving ORC Club a fair try for a few years, Bee found the rating system to be unfair to J boats.  The C&C 121 ParrotTale's owner found the rating system unfair to that newer design as well.  Having sailed, and raced, on both boats, I cannot fault either skipper for his opinion.  ORC Club, like PHRF, was not PHRFect, and boats that did not follow their limitations on spinnaker sizes (for example) got penalized unfairly.  So in 2009, a handful of discouraged racers opted to move into the cruising fleet where PHRF type ratings were still being used.

i do not think ORC is unfair to any boat.  My objection was more along political lines.  Its difficulty for some to figure out their position using two versus one number.  I checked all the rankings each time and the difference between PHRF and ORC was one or two positions.  Cross plotting one against the other shows that under the assumption the VPP predicts the wind more accurately, ORC is more accurate. When BEZ won, Stinger would have been 4th under ORC and 4th under PHRF.  Certainly not much of a difference, but the mathematician in me says that ORC is most likely fairer then PHRF.

After trouncing the Cruising Spinnaker Fleet in 2009, no one felt worse about his victory than Bee himself, and he vowed he would never race in the cruising fleet again.  And to encourage future cruising spinnaker sailors, we modified the following year's cruising class rules to limit the fleet to the more typical cruising spinnaker boat;  we added restrictions on spinnaker size and said that the spinnaker tack point could not exceed 125% of "J".   At the same time, we offered a PHRF Spinnaker division within the racing fleet for those boats who did not feel they had a fair chance under ORC Club.  Both Stinger and Parrottales opted to race in the newly created PHRF spinnaker class, although that made them ineligible for the overall racing spinnaker fleet trophy, "The Bacardi Cup" which was scored under ORC Club at that time.  A year or so later, we gave up on ORC Club and moved toward using PHRF-like ratings for all fleets including the Bacardi racers.

Agreed.

[svShearwater]

It is perfectly clear where my boat will race, so no real point in me contacting Andrea.  We are a sport boat from bottom to top although not as extreme as the Viper. 

I don't want to discourage you from entering, but I do not think your boat falls into the Sport Boat definition.  Under the rules as they are currently written, if a Melges decides to race, it would race in the Sport Boat Fleet for the Bacardi Superior trophy against the Santa Cruz, and maybe against an Olsen 30 or Hobie 33 if they should decide to race.  I have not checked the numbers so I'm not absolutely certain they qualify either and I've already admitted my memory has its flaws so feel free to correct me if their SA/D is not greater than 23 or their D/L is not less than 125.

New boat this year. I think think the D/L is around 65 and the Sa/D is around 30.

[Andrea]

New boat this year. I think think the D/L is around 65 and the Sa/D is around 30.

My bad.  I mistakenly assumed you were talking about a J/120.  Those numbers would certainly make the new boat a sport boat.

[Bee]

New boat this year. I think think the D/L is around 65 and the Sa/D is around 30.

And its quite lovely.

[Bee]

Interesting split of the Bacardi fleet.  Now only heavy and sport 

What does the spin fleet compete for?

[gwittich]

I may be mistaken but I believe this year THREE Bacardi classes will be offered:

Bacardi Superior - sport boats, including Stinger, I presume;
Bacardi Heavy Oak - you are way to light and nimble for that class, Bee... and
PHRF spin for the average racing Joe...(that's also definitely not you, Bee);

Andrea, please correct me if I am wrong.
GW

[Andrea]

You are partially right GW. Three Bacardi Trophies, just like last year.  With Bacardi's blessing, we added two new Bacardi trophies in 2014, so now there are three. The traditional cup, the Oakheart, and the Superior.  But since we used the PHRF published formula for determining Sport Boat rather than create our own arbitrary dividing point, (besides, not too many J105s have ever taken home the old cup) Bee will have to race against the 'regular guys' while a few former cup winners will be racing Superior.  Of course the regular guys include some world class pro racers and a good sized J105 division I hear, so it is still a very tough group.  And there will be world class rum for all! 

[ShakenNotStirred]

Andrea,
Maybe you should consider another class just for Bee, the Bacardi Ocho class.
According to Bacardi the Ocho rum is "...one of the oldest private rum blends in the world." 
And Bee is one of the oldest J105 skippers in the world.

[Bee]

Oh thank you my young friends, but just remember Rum Makes You Dumb.  Since I already have reached that lofty state of being, I avoid rum ---- well most of the time --- except at GBCA parties ---- and when Cabron makes them for me.