Harvest Moon PHRF categories?

[svShearwater]

I'm slow and I don't understand.  I realize this isn't a GBCA race, but this still seems like the best place to ask the question.

There seems to be PHRF-Heavy, PHRF-sport  boat, and PHRF-Spin.  Isn't a PHRF-Spin boat either Heavy or sport boat?  Why 3 classes? 

Also, how does a Santa Cruz 50 fit into the heavy class and the J/105 into the sport boat class.  Running the numbers roughly for both and using the PHRF GB sport boat rules, it looks the SC 50 should be in sport boat and the J/105 in heavy.  What am I missing? 

[gwittich]

Andrea Todaro is the PRO for HMR.
Her contact info is on the NOR - (harvestmoonregatta.com).

[Bee]

Politics? 

Stinger entered the Cruising Spin fleet in 2009 and won the Commodore's Trophy.  Top three boats were J105 Stinger, C & C 121 Parrot Tales, and Liquid Courage (don't know what kind of boat).  For line honors, the finish was J105, J35, and the C&C 121.  Its worth noting that we did this without our genoa---forgot it on the dock---so I think it was the boat that actually won it and not so much our wonderfful skill.  Andrea told me that hence for and forever more J105's would be considered sport boats.  I believe they are so defined by PHRFGB as well, but have never checked.  BTW, Stinger's weight certificate shows 8,850#, but displacement is given as 7,750#.

Two years ago, Stinger was the 6th mono hull to finish, behind, such lovely things as  J120's, J44's, and a Viper 840.  O. J. Young's Whitby 42's handicap beat us all by a huge margin.  I have to admit to being guilty of bitching about the fact that J105's were excluded from the Cruising Spin Fleet but every boat in that class can and does compete against them.  I think this is actually Andrea's attempt to balance the field and make it fairer to all.

You have to remember that this race was really set up more for the cruising classes then us hotsy totsy nasty A-Kites.  It really isn't fair for a Beneteau 493 to compete against a Viper 840 or a J105. There are a ton of cruising boats from as far away as New Orleans that compete in this run.  They may or may not have full racing sails but they add a lot to the party and so I believe Andrea is doing as best as she can to balance the various alternatives.

[svShearwater]

Hi Bee

Totally understand that situation, but now we are just splitting hairs amongst us racers.  In addition to the 3 PHRF spin classes, there is also a PHRF non-spin and a number of cruising classes, so it seems HMR has addressed the racers vs. the cruisers.  That still doesn't answer why there is a PHRF Spin class in addition to PHRF Heavy and Sport Boat.  Walter, you registered for PHRF Spin.  Why that class and not PHRF Heavy?

I ran the numbers for the J/105 using what we all know is bogus displacement of 7750 and even then the 105 doesn't meet the sport boat criteria.  Disp/L is 135 vs. 125 cut-off.  A J/105 I raced against in California was officially measured last year, full empty it weighed just over 9000 pounds.  In addition, the SC 50 easily meets the sport boat criteria.  Not to mention that calling any Santa Cruz "heavy" is an insult to Bill Lee and his ULDB philosophy.  The SC 50 is one of the original ULDB's (ultralight displacement boat in case I surprised anyone). 

It is perfectly clear where my boat will race, so no real point in me contacting Andrea.  We are a sport boat from bottom to top although not as extreme as the Viper. 

By the way, we are heading down tomorrow morning from Austin with the new boat.  Plan to be on the line for our first Rum Race this year tomorrow evening.  Can't wait.  Is it Friday evening yet?  I'm ready to go play. 

[gadangit]

I was trying to figure that whole thing out the other day as well.  Our Ericson 39 is 314 D/L and per the instructions I guess I could ask to go to the Heavy, but I was planning on just registering PHRF Spin. 

Funny analysis of the SC 50, last years ULDB is now a heavy cruiser! 

Chris

[Bee]

Yes, Justin, you are right about the sport boat qualifications.  I checked PHRFGB and their definition conforms with the correct one.  However, this does not stop PRO's from using their own definition.  BTW, the very first time Stinger did the HMR, she was the 14th monohull across the line and got absolutely positively nothing.  In spite of having a class PHRF of 87, she was given a 66.  I suspect this was because the J105 Rare Breed had just hammered the fleet a couple years before.

When racing class, a J105 must  weigh no less then 3890 kb = 8576#.  I miss typed when I gave Stinger's weight.  She comes in at 8580# based on a top of the line digital scale.  J105s come in two types.  Hull's prior to 151 are called "pre-scrimp" and are usually 200-400# lighter then "scrimp" boats.  Lighter boats must have extra lead installed to bring the weight up to the class minimum.   

Not surprised there are boats that weigh upwards of 9000#, but I think a new one today would probably come in close to spot on.

Anyway I always look forward to the HMR.  We have always have a great time.  Its hard to forget hitting 18 knots and holding 14+ several minutes even when the rest of the race sucked.

Good luck tomorrow

[ShakenNotStirred]

Its hard to forget hitting 18 knots and holding 14+ several minutes...

Sounds like ya got yerself a sport boat there.

[ShakenNotStirred]

Walter, you registered for PHRF Spin.  Why that class and not PHRF Heavy?

Justin,
Per the NOR:
3.11 Sport Boats, as defined by PHRF-GB, shall compete in the Sport Boat "Bacardi Superior" division only. PHRF Spinnaker boats with displacement-to-length ratios over 325 shall compete in the Heavy Displacement "Bacardi Oak Heart" division only; other PHRF Spinnaker boats with displacement-to-length ratios between 300 and 325 may race in the Heavy Displacement division at the discretion of the Race Committee.

I didn't see the definition of "displacement-to-length ratio" in the NOR, but used the calculator link elsewhere on the website. The calculator uses the following:

Formula Disp/WL Ratio=(Disp/2240)/((LWL * 0.01)cubed)

Using that formula the calculator determines the J/40 is a "moderate cruiser" which sounds about right. The J105 would be a "performance cruiser".

[svShearwater]

So, it reads like there are 3 classes, light (SportBoat), medium (Spin), and heavy (Heavy).  Which makes sense, sort of.  Going with that, there is no way the SC 50 belongs in the heavy class, and the J/120 and J/105 don't belong in the sport boat class.  Seems like there is a mixing of sport boat and "sprit" boat. 

Bee, according the NOR, they are using the PHRFGB sport boat definition. 

Me confused... 

On the bright side there will be lots of boats to race against and rum on the other side, so I don't worry too much.

Now everyone please be good so Neptune grants us fair winds and following seas.  My "sport boat" goes upwind like a..., well, like a real sport boat.

[hayesrigging]

I started some correspondence last week with Andrea and the HM committee regarding this exact issue.  I don't see why sport boats are kept from racing against race boats.  This is the only regatta in the country that does this.  Giving sport boats there own class totally makes sense, but the big trophy is the Bacardi Cup and that is for the racing fleet.  Sport boats should be able to compete for the racing trophy!!  If we had 20-25 sport boats racing that would be a different story. 

Don't read too much about what class boats are in right now on the website, Andrea mentioned in one of her emails that she hasn't checked to see if the boats that are currently listed in those classes actually belong there.  She is on vacation and is hoping to address this issue when she gets back. 

We are planning on taking the Melges 32 again if they allow us to race for the Bacardi Cup. 

As for the "sport boat definition", that was suppose to be deleted from the PHRFGB website years ago.  When I was on the PHRFGB committee we voted to do away with that definition, we weren't using it for anything and it was causing issues like this to pop up.  It was never deleted and therefore is being used.  I would imagine by that definition that a good portion of the boats that do the Trans Pac and also the Newport/Bermuda are considered "sport boats". 

I would be interested to hear any viewpoints from the "displacement" boats on the separate fleets for Harvest Moon.  If you go back and look at the results there is a pretty good spread between heavy/sport and regular displacement boats over the past few years.  The year we won on Mojo we were only a few minutes ahead of a Santana 35 and then a few J-122s right there as well.  Granted that was under ORC but I don't think the results would of changed a bunch under PHRF. 

[Bee]

According to the ratings, Stinger is not a sport boat.  She will plane in high winds --- 25+---, and her SA/D is 24 (with the 7750 displacement) but her D/L is 135.  Its the 135 that keeps J105's out of the sport boat class.  Stinger's all time top speed is 19.75.  Hit that during the Heald Bank in 2006, I believe.  Our average SOG to Heald Bank was 12.2. Best top speed since then is 18.3 in the 2013 HMR.  In HYC's Leukemia distance spin class we briefly hit 17.3 but held 16 for several minutes when the storm hit.  Stable as a rock at those speeds and a hell of a lot of fun. Keeps the Old Phart's adrenaline  pumping.

You guys are making me drool for high winds in this years HMR and the GBCA Offshore.  A good Texas Blue Norther (25 all the way to PA) would be greatly appreciated. Couldn't beat that pro crewed MoPo, but we would still have a great time.  Bit smiles all the way.

[USA74]

Giving sport boats there own class totally makes sense, but the big trophy is the Bacardi Cup and that is for the racing fleet.  Sport boats should be able to compete for the racing trophy!!

I would be interested to hear any viewpoints from the "displacement" boats on the separate fleets for Harvest Moon.

I'm a recovering sport boat owner and current displacement boat owner. I concur with Mr. Hayes that the racing fleet should be split into light, med, and heavy classes, BUT with an overall PHRF winner too. Two reasons: First, as I understand it, The Bacardi Cup is traditionally awarded to best overall performance, so it should remain that way (winner of all racing classes). But on the other hand (reason #2), we're trying to promote sailing, and to do that, everyone should have a fair chance at coming home with a memento of a race well run if they are one of the best sailed and best prepared boats among their peers.

In W/L or triangles, the downwind advantages of planing boats and/or the reaching advantages of big genoas are ameliorated by the variety of the legs within the race (and therefore variety of wind angles). IMHO the problem with what is essentially a straight line point-to-point race like Harvest Moon is that unless the breeze changes, conditions WILL favor a certain kind of boat over another. So subdividing a massive PHRF fleet into divisions of more similar boat types makes sense. If you run the best race among your peers, you have a change to win your division. If you run the best race AND luck happens to smile upon you with favorable conditions for your kind of boat, you have a chance at winning the Bacardi. I think that's good and fair. It gives everyone something to shoot for and it makes it nearly impossible for someone to capture the Bacardi Trophy year after year.

If the problem is that the 105s have planing potential, but are not "sport boats" according to definition, I suggest the issue is that perhaps the sport boat definition (at least for Harvest Moon) needs tweaking. Doesn't seem fair to have a mathematical description of what defines a sport boat followed by the proviso "and J/105s too". 

[KeithMag]

I come out from California every year to race with a customer in the HMR and am the first to commend the Texas area for promoting sailing and having a plethora of interesting classes.  It is really nice to have a manufacturers trophy and helps bring in the Beneteau's and Catalina Yachts.  Something I started here for the Newport To Ensenada Race.

Now that being said... All boats flying a spinnaker in a racing division and a mono-hull should be eligible for the Bacardi Cup (Or whatever the overall trophy is called).  PHRF boards do their best with ratings and it is hard.  I run a C&C30 One Design and in PHRF you could rate us 80 Upwind and 12 downwind... so around 40 seems fair... we still have to work hard!  Point being that the ratings are as fair as they can be.

It is not good for any sport to have too many trophies.  In America we are always quick to give a standing ovation where other countries reserve it for outstanding performances.  So why flood the sport with unnecessary trophies that make the presentation overly long?  It de-values it.  Sailing should be promoted by the fact that it is fun, adventure, exciting, competitive and healthy (If you avoid Yacht Club's and the boozing).

I have raced the HMR for many years and take a lot of the philosophy back home and push it...You guys are doing amazing things, just do not get lost in the trophies... sailing is fun so Just Go And Sail (My Blog www.justgoandsail.com)

And do not worry... No J-105 has ever been on the step and actually been on a plane.. It sure surfs and pushes a lot of water well

Keith

[Andrea]

Okay, Where to start

There seems to be PHRF-Heavy, PHRF-sport  boat, and PHRF-Spin.  Isn't a PHRF-Spin boat either Heavy or sport boat?  Why 3 classes? 

We offered three Bacardi Trophies beginning last year because in most years we can tell you who will win the top prize before the race starts.

PHRF is a nice simple system to understand but it has its limits. It is a single number system where boats are rated for windward leeward buoy sailing in 12 knots of wind in the bay.     

Harvest Moon is a point to point race in the gulf.  Wind conditions vary considerably;  you might see some windward beating, leeward running, reaching, or a combination of all three.  If there is heavy wind, and anything but flat seas, a heavy displacement boat with a long waterline has a significant advantage because it can't get out of its own way in the buoy race where its PHRF rating was determined, but it is in its own element on a point to point reaching or running race with good wind.  In light to moderate air with flat seas, a sport boat like an Olsen 30 or a boat that can surf or plane has a significant advantage.  The rest of the racing pack has few chances to win top honors, unless they are sailed by professionals who will spare no expense to be sure the bottom is slicker than snot and the sails are top notch. 

So in an effort to make the competition better, we opted to try to grow a Sport Boat Fleet and a Heavy Displacement Fleet by offering each of  them their own Bacardi Trophy, while at the same time giving the bulk of the PHRF spinnaker fleet a better chance at fair competition.   In an effort to avoid the frequent claims of politics or favoritism, we borrowed definitions and distinctions from PHRF to draw the lines.  Thus, the Sport Boat definition and the Heavy Displacement definition came from PHRF-GB.

So, that is why there are, at this writing, three classes within the PHRF spinnaker fleet.

[Andrea]

Now, for Part 2.

Also, how does a Santa Cruz 50 fit into the heavy class and the J/105 into the sport boat class.  Running the numbers roughly for both and using the PHRF GB sport boat rules, it looks the SC 50 should be in sport boat and the J/105 in heavy.  What am I missing?

The Santa Cruz 50 is in fact a sport boat.  Sometimes when boats enter a regatta using Regatta Networks, most of the blanks self populate based on answers to prior year's entry form questions.  If the race committee offers Sport Boat as the first option one year, but offers Heavy Displacement as the first option the following year, if a skipper does not carefully read each question and review each default answer, he can easily find himself in the wrong class.  I suspect this may be what happened with the Santa Cruz when it was initially registered.

A class rigged J/105 is neither Heavy or Sport Boat under the PHRF definitions.

All these boats have been moved, and their skippers have been asked to provide PHRF certificates if they do not agree with the RC's assessment.   Please note, this is a Corinthian self policing sport, and one would hope that competitors would notify their fellow skippers if they think they are in the wrong group.  The RC does not have enough volunteers to fact check every single boat, particularly since PHRF-GB no longer shares waterlines, sail areas, and displacements online.  Additionally, IMHO, unless you can show that a skipper was notified that his class selection was not correct, a jury is not likely to look favorably on a challenge to skipper's class selection if it is made after the race, days after the fleets were published at the skipper's meeting.