2016 Performance Cup

[Bob H]

Registration for the performance cup is now open!
Go to http://www.GBCA.org and look under "Performance Cup Regatta" for the Notice of Race, the Registration link, and to see who's racing.

Hope you'll all come out for a great regatta on March 19th and 20th!

[Bob H]

One thing we're adding for this regatta:
Distance courses for PHRF Spin and PHRF Non-Spin. The Cruising Club handicap fleet will also be a distance course. These are called "PHRF Spin Distance" and "PHRF Non Spin Distance". They will be pursuit starts similar to the Icicle and Rum races, except we will have you finish at an RC boat.

If you want to sail a windward/leeward type in PHRF, select one of the following choices in Regatta network.

-PHRF Non Spin
-PHRF Spin No sprit
-PHRF Spin Factory Sprit
-PHRF Aftermarket Sprit

As the registrations come in we'll see what fleets make, and give those that don't the option to move to other fleets.
As always, if you have questions, please contact me: rdhunkins(at)verizon(dot)net
Thanks,
Bob H.

[hayesrigging]

Still not sure why we have factory and aftermarket sprit in separate classes?  For that matter why spit and non sprit are separated in w/l racing.  We have such a small pool of boats racing, to divide them up even further makes very small classes. 

We have a good PHRF committee, they should be able to rate a "aftermarket" sprit vs factory sprit and also a sym boat vs asymmetric boat on w/l. 

[Bee]

Still not sure why we have factory and aftermarket sprit in separate classes?  For that matter why spit and non sprit are separated in w/l racing.  We have such a small pool of boats racing, to divide them up even further makes very small classes. 

We have a good PHRF committee, they should be able to rate a "aftermarket" sprit vs factory sprit and also a sym boat vs asymmetric boat on w/l.

I don't understand this either Kevin, at least not completely.  It does seem to increase the number of boats that have a shot at a trophy and that's probably a good thing.

I recently discussed this with someone who I won't name who knows a lot about this.  His position is that we really don't know how to rate some boats, such as one-offs,  in PHRF at all.  Then when such boats add a sprit the entire mess becomes even more complex.  I think this is at least part of the reason for the recent ORC discussions at LYC. 

I don't have any direct evidence that ORC is a better system then the way PHRFGB comes up with their ratings (I also think they do a good job) but because its based on a VPP the mathematician in me says that it probably is. In the worst case, it should at least be consistent.  It would be nice to test both systems in the rum races just to see how different the results might be.  I would be willing to get another ORC cert but the $100/yr fee might limit participation.

[marc]

If the participation numbers are already down, splitting those limited numbers doesn't make much sense and it doesn't encourage the fleets to grow.

If someone was thinking of buying an old J35 or something similar to race around here, they would be crazy to do it, there's nobody to race against. You will never race against the J109's or the J105's, even the 1D35 that's coming back is going to have a sprit. So, if someone is inclined to spend 60-100K on a raceboat with an interior (which used to be the core of the racing scene on Galveston Bay), I don't know what you would buy and who you would race against.

And I'll go one more than the Sprit/Non-Sprit/Aftermarket Sprit class breaks, is it more fun for anyone to have 3 boat One Design Classes? That just isn't enough boats to be tactically interesting or provide lead changes, tight mark roundings, competitive starts, etc.

It would be nice to see if just one-time a year every 30+ footer on the bay with a PHRF rating between 40-100 in a Windward Leeward class together. Score a sub-class for the 105's and anyone else with 3 or more boats so they get their 1 Design recognition. You may actually see 10 big boats in a class for the first time in a decade and I know it would be fun.

In summary, big fleets are fun, encourage big fleets, not small ones.

Oh, and if getting PHRF ratings on one-offs and modified boats is tough, let them sail windward leewards against each other in a range of conditions. You will eventually get the data points to get better ratings. Never letting them race against each other just exacerbates the problem.

Marc

[Bee]

Can't argue with any of that Marc.  In fact, if you look at this year's Icicle races the only non J/Boats in the point were Pingo in 1st (no surprise there) and Gold Rush. My feeling is that Pingo and the sprint based J/Boats have been dominating the PHRF Icicles and Rum races for some time now.  I suspect Guacho (B25 with add-on sprit) would be in that bunch as well.

I personally do not like racing OD in a 3 boat class.  Its much more fun to have at least 5.  I am also reaching that age where distance races are much more acceptable. The 105 fleet is working on growing but its not clear when, or if, we will ever get back to the old 5-7 boat races.  J/Boats no longer pushes the 105's or 109's.  They are making too much money off J70's and J111's.  I would love to have a 111 but they are just too expensive for what you get.

I have said earlier that I really miss the big classes of even as little as 10 years ago.  Even if you did not race against them the old level 70 class was interesting to watch.  Some really good sailors there.  Back then even the Offshore Races had more then the 7 or so spin boats we get today.

Wonder what foilers will do to sail boat racing.

Because of how it simplifies handling the spinnaker, I suspect more and more symmetric will be converting, but as you say, for the most part, they are not likely to be all that competitive with top sprit boats on the Bay.

[marc]

To clarify, I never said Symmetrical boats couldn't be competitive with the Asyms on the bay.

On a Windward Leeward course the Asyms should have no advantage whatsoever. It's all very hypothetical at this point because there are so few Symmetricals in that rating band, and Race Committees split them apart, which to Kevin's original point makes no sense. And as I understand it there is no longer a rating hit for a boat with a conventional pole to fly an Asym off it, so a J35 (as an example) could carry an Asym for when the wind goes light, fly a Symmetrical off the pole when the wind is up and running deep and probably have an advantage over the sprit boats.

Again, all very hypothetical on Galveston Bay in 2016.

[Bee]

Sorry, my bad.  Misread what you said earlier.

[Dan]

Little Joe just registered for the PHRF W/L Class.  I am hoping we get a lot of boats on the line.

As far as classes breaks go, what means the most for us is the size of the fleet in our start. I have sailed one-design for years and it was great as long as we had 7 to 10 boats out. Any less than 5 and it was follow the leader. Not much change in positions in a club fleet that small.

For PHRF Spinnaker boats, why not target fleet size as the first principle? Up to 11, one fleet. 12 or more, split all of the spinnaker boats into two rating groups. Or at least keep similar rated boats in the same fleet. And no fleets less than 5.

If, the ASYM don't want to sail against SYM or vice versa, then split it ASYM and SYM. (I don't see the factory vs. non factory).

The only issue with the ASYM all in one class is the overlap with the J- Boats that could sail one-design. I get it. One-design is great. So as not to break up that party, if the 105's and 109's sail one-design, that is their call.

Here's hoping for a big fleet of PHRF boats for the W/L's so that this all works out.

[Bee]

More good comments.  I do think that the current split that we have for the Icicle and Rum races have actually got more boats out. Its always nice to see 60 or so boats out there competing. The after race parties are usually packed and that is also fun.  Kevin Box's GBCA Cruising Class went gang busters for a while and it was nice to see those big boats on the line as well.  Now if we could just figure out how to get more boats out for things like the Midwinter, Performance Cup, and ...  Not sure that's possible but it would be nice.

Little Joe just registered for the PHRF W/L Class.  I am hoping we get a lot of boats on the line.

As far as classes breaks go, what means the most for us is the size of the fleet in our start. I have sailed one-design for years and it was great as long as we had 7 to 10 boats out. Any less than 5 and it was follow the leader. Not much change in positions in a club fleet that small.

For PHRF Spinnaker boats, why not target fleet size as the first principle? Up to 11, one fleet. 12 or more, split all of the spinnaker boats into two rating groups. Or at least keep similar rated boats in the same fleet. And no fleets less than 5.

If, the ASYM don't want to sail against SYM or vice versa, then split it ASYM and SYM. (I don't see the factory vs. non factory).

The only issue with the ASYM all in one class is the overlap with the J- Boats that could sail one-design. I get it. One-design is great. So as not to break up that party, if the 105's and 109's sail one-design, that is their call.

Here's hoping for a big fleet of PHRF boats for the W/L's so that this all works out.

[Charles]

The GBCA board and Race Captain are just trying to do what we are hearing that the racers want.  We have been told that the aftermarket sprit boats  think they can't compete with a factory sprit boat, so we have been experimenting with the split fleet to see if participation increases.  Also, we have had better participation overall when we offer distance courses to everyone.  Maybe everyone is getting old.  If anyone has suggestions on how to make our races better, please come to a board meeting with your ideas.  We meet the third Tuesday of ever month ;at 7:00PM.
Charles
GBCA Vice Commodore

[JayZ]

Hear Hear.

[JayZ]

Of course the average huntabenalina or random cruiser racer is not equipped to race against a j105 or j109 etc simply because they have a small seldom prod added to their boat.

There's a better way.

The GBCA board and Race Captain are just trying to do what we are hearing that the racers want.  We have been told that the aftermarket sprit boats  think they can't compete with a factory sprit boat, so we have been experimenting with the split fleet to see if participation increases.  Also, we have had better participation overall when we offer distance courses to everyone.  Maybe everyone is getting old.  If anyone has suggestions on how to make our races better, please come to a board meeting with your ideas.  We meet the third Tuesday of ever month ;at 7:00PM.
Charles
GBCA Vice Commodore

[JayZ]

Of course the average huntabenalina or random cruiser racer is not equipped to race against a j105 or j109 etc simply because they have a small selden prod/sprit added to their boat.

There's a better way.

The GBCA board and Race Captain are just trying to do what we are hearing that the racers want.  We have been told that the aftermarket sprit boats  think they can't compete with a factory sprit boat, so we have been experimenting with the split fleet to see if participation increases.  Also, we have had better participation overall when we offer distance courses to everyone.  Maybe everyone is getting old.  If anyone has suggestions on how to make our races better, please come to a board meeting with your ideas.  We meet the third Tuesday of ever month ;at 7:00PM.
Charles
GBCA Vice Commodore

[hayesrigging]

If there is a cruising type boat that rates close to a J109 and they decide to install a prod then PHRF should be able to rate the boats to race against each other.   That's what the whole premis of PHRF is about.  I'm not talking about a 25+ sec/mile spread.   PHRF should be able to rate a Hunter 40 with a prod vs a boat of similar speed such as C&C 37.  I assume that's why PHRF spent countless hours developing the parameters allowing sprits to be added.  If PHRF doesn't intend on rating aftermarket sprits vs traditional sprits or symmetrical boats then why have the parameters of the length of sprit and sail size??  The operating policies of PHRF state that they boat is assumed to be race ready, with race bottom, racing sails, etc.  If a boat doesn't havent this I believe that is why the cruising handicap was developed or the cruising spinnaker class (Dacron sails) was developed.   

What's gonna happen when the 1D35 shows up with an aftermarket sprit?  We form a 18th class and call it "PHRF Aftermarket Sprit Sport Boat" class??   The traditional spin boat that's been around for 40 years has no one to race against anymore.  If I were to race Psyched in a bay race I have no one to race against.  There is no PHRF spin anymore.  They have all been divided up into 3 boat one design classes, sprit classes, aftermarket sprits, etc. 

I agree with the earlier suggestion that any of theses classes shouldn't form unless they have a minimum of 5 boats AND the ther boats entered have a minimum of 5 boats to form a competitive class for them to race in.  When I was fleet captain and Commodore we always had the "at the discretion of the race committee" written in the NOR when mentioning how and what classes would be offered. 

I do think this is a great conversation for Galveston Bay.  I'd like to hear what some of the aftermarket sprit boats think?  Ben 44.7, 1D35, Sparcraft one ton, etc.