2016 Performance Cup

[Bee]

If there is a cruising type boat that rates close to a J109 and they decide to install a prod then PHRF should be able to rate the boats to race against each other.

Not sure I agree.  I certainly would like to agree and I know the PHRFGB folk do as good a job as anyone rating the different boats.  However, my experience says otherwise.  Suppose you have a J105, J109, and Psyched all racing W/L.  I am going to assume each boat has top notch sails and are each sailed by the top sailors in each class (not me) on the Bay.

At 6 knots TW I would expect the 109 to top everyone upwind with Psyched close behind.  The 109 is a fabulous light air boat.  A 105 stinks up the place. Because the shrouds are outboard further then the other two boats the 105 loses the  pointing game upwind. After the rounding the 105 and 109 would be close but its unlikely that the 105 could make up the distance.  You will have to tell me if Psyched (flying an A-Kite) can catch and pass a 109 downwind in these conditions.  I have not seen Psyched in perfect form, but I would give the PHRF rating advantage to the 109.

At 12 knots I would bet that the racing would be extremely close.  It may be that the 109 and Psyched would have an upwind advantage using a #2 rather then the #3 the 105 would probably be flying but the boats would both be sailing very close to their PHRF rating.  Flying a 110 sq mt kite downwind I would give a slight PHRF advantage to the 105 because she will be able to dig deeper then the other two boats simply because her apparent wind will be further forward.  I have to qualify this a bit.  I have been on Gerhard's Saga 43 and was amazed as to how deep he could go flying his A-kite.  Kudos to Gerhard's helming and Pedro's kite design for that one.

At 18+ knots the upwind racing is again going to be close but there is little question in my mind that the 105 will have a distinct advantage downwind.  The 105 will almost constantly be above 10 knots with surfs upwards of 14.  Because the apparent wind on the 105 will be further forward (faster SOG) she will also be sailing very close to dead down, certainly at 170 degrees.  If there is sufficient weight on the rail she will even be able to do an occasional dead down.

At 24 knots the 105 will be doing 6.8-7.1 upwind and rarely be much less then 12 knots SOG downwind.  She will plane in the gust for sure and top speeds of 18+ will be frequent and depending on wave action last a good while. I don't think a single rating number can handle this.

OK, so here is my point.  A single number system cannot level out the differences between these three boats.  One would need a system that would provide a different number for each wind range.  The race committee would have to decide which number is valid for each race in a series.  Not sure I would want to be the RC in that setting.  As most of you know, I do not have the personality to take much abuse.

Not going to talk about a M32 or Pedro's Pingo.  Will let you decide how they would perform in a single number PHRF system.

I also have to agree these discussions are great.

[JayZ]

I read through this a bit last night and posted after happy hour ended...

Some more thoughts with a bit more clarity I hope.  First of all, I completely agree with Kevin and Marc that the fleets are getting too divided.  I also think this is nothing new around here.  ...level 70, SOS, Classic class, Club handicap on and on.

The discussions at the PHRF meetings about the sprits and assym started off when a lot of factory cruising boats were being delivered with the selden add on sprit etc.  There was not a good rule in place to address this.  The closest thing we had was the offsets for an oversized spinnaker pole.  ...that didn't make any sense.

The next thing to think about was the typical racer cruiser that wanted the ease or perceived ease of going to an assy on a small sprit to get it out in front of the headstay to make for easier gybes. 

The committee also had to address boats like the modified race boats like the ones Kevin Hayes mentioned.  In the past modified boats got penalized to the point of not being competetive at all.

Generally speaking the thought process was for the rule and sprit/spinnaker size corrections were to level the playing field between like boats.  For instance a Beneteau First 38 with a sprit and one without to be able to race fairly against one another.  The modified race boats take a little more thought.  I think generally the committee came pretty close to getting the new rule right.

There has been a lot of discussion on how to class these boats on the bay and ultimately that is up to the PRO and not PHRF.

That said, I'm not really in favor of sub-dividing the fleets like GBCA is doing right now.  I'm not sure of the best solution ...well actually more boats competing would probably fix everything but outside of that I think simply going back to rating band splits and seeing how things play out would be my suggestion.

[USA74]

Take it from me, who just moved our boat from Texoma to Galveston Bay, it's infinitely MORE FUN to loose to by a few seconds even if the ratings aren't quite fair than it is to have nobody to race against.

I am very concerned that I'm seeing the same trend here as we saw in North Texas. First, everyone stops racing W/Ls in favor of distance races. Then once everyone tires of sailing the boat parades, people just stay at the dock.

Last year we couldn't even race J/Fest because there weren't enough boats for a J/PHRF class??? How's that even possible in a place like Galveston Bay???

[Bee]

Well said J. D.  It is definitely more fun to sail in a big fleet and lose then to sail against three boats in a parade.  On the other hand I have to admit I am rapidly approaching the stay at the dock age.

Take it from me, who just moved our boat from Texoma to Galveston Bay, it's infinitely MORE FUN to loose to by a few seconds even if the ratings aren't quite fair than it is to have nobody to race against.

I am very concerned that I'm seeing the same trend here as we saw in North Texas. First, everyone stops racing W/Ls in favor of distance races. Then once everyone tires of sailing the boat parades, people just stay at the dock.

Last year we couldn't even race J/Fest because there weren't enough boats for a J/PHRF class??? How's that even possible in a place like Galveston Bay???

[USA74]

On the other hand I have to admit I am rapidly approaching the stay at the dock age.

That's not going to happen! We'll just bolt your wheel chair to the stern pulpit, strap you in, and let you call tactics.

[ShakenNotStirred]

The GBCA board and Race Captain are just trying to do what we are hearing that the racers want.  We have been told that the aftermarket sprit boats  think they can't compete with a factory sprit boat, so we have been experimenting with the split fleet to see if participation increases.  Also, we have had better participation overall when we offer distance courses to everyone.  Maybe everyone is getting old.  If anyone has suggestions on how to make our races better, please come to a board meeting with your ideas.  We meet the third Tuesday of ever month ;at 7:00PM.
Charles
GBCA Vice Commodore

Where were those "aftermarket sprit" boats for the Icicle series? Maximum participation of 3 boats in ONE race out of five?  And I doubt any of those three would have minded at all if they were able to race in a class that included more boats.  I would say that experiment has run its course.

[Christopher]

If anyone needs crew for Performance Cup this weekend, let me know. I have a couple crew contacts from AYC looking for a ride.

[Bee]

I can agree with this.  Its interesting that of the 36 boats currently entered, 20 are "sprit" boats.  I am also aware that there are others who don't have sprits but do run A-Kites.  It would seem to me that a better approach would be to go back to letting the PRO/RC decide how to break out various classes.

I recently took a look at J-Boats new J/11S https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qApjdjEUIP4.  This is a J-111 sized boat designed as a short-handed speedster.  It does have a short sprit, but surprise, surprise it comes standard with a POLE. Not sure how that works when short handed, but  J/Boats line is that running with a symmetric kite reduces the need to gybe and so has more tactical advantages then a more traditional long sprit A-Kite.  Who woulda thunk it?

The GBCA board and Race Captain are just trying to do what we are hearing that the racers want.  We have been told that the aftermarket sprit boats  think they can't compete with a factory sprit boat, so we have been experimenting with the split fleet to see if participation increases.  Also, we have had better participation overall when we offer distance courses to everyone.  Maybe everyone is getting old.  If anyone has suggestions on how to make our races better, please come to a board meeting with your ideas.  We meet the third Tuesday of ever month ;at 7:00PM.
Charles
GBCA Vice Commodore

Where were those "aftermarket sprit" boats for the Icicle series? Maximum participation of 3 boats in ONE race out of five?  And I doubt any of those three would have minded at all if they were able to race in a class that included more boats.  I would say that experiment has run its course.

[hayesrigging]

The 3 boat one design class (J109) this weekend is exactly what I've been talking about in regards to class splits.  There could be a great class A with the 122, c&c115 and 3 J109s.  Then have the rest of the boats Melges 24, J-80, j-92s, J-70 and Pingo in Class B.  I would also add in the Ben 25 (which is another reason not to split the "factory vs non factory sprits".  When was the last time you saw 8 boats in a under 30' class with all relatively similiar design on GB? 

Where will the class split be if the 109s have there own class?  It's not fair racing for either end of the spectrum in the PHRF group.  I never recall sitting in a PHRF committee meeting and someone on the board ask "how well will a J-122 sail against a J-80"?   PHRF works with similiar boats of similiar size. 

Just my thoughts! 

[Funk]

In support of what Kevin is saying;  the bene. 25 is not going to race this weekend because we have been moved to the distance class.
You guys have a good weekend.

[STuma]

The easiest thing for a race committee is a lot of entries. Why don't the 109's and 105's form one class? Race Committees try to divide classes into most like boats; maybe we separate too much. But, the rating band becomes too great. For the Spin W/L, we range from 33 to 120. This is about like the fairness of a pursuit race. I have had people argue with me on where the after-market sprit boats should race. This is a very tough call for race committee. I can only hope for a day with an increasing wind. I would have preferred to sail a distance course this weekend.

How do we get more boats? I don't know the secret, but it's somehow catering to one-design and pursuit style racing.

[Mark]

There was no reason - as far as PHRFGB aftermarket sprit rating - that the Beneteau 25 should not be allowed to race a W/L format with the "factory sprit" boats. It was not the intend of the "retro sprit" to segregate the boats to racing only against each other.

[Bee]

The 105's had six boats sign up for this regatta.  Seems like enough for their own class to me.

The easiest thing for a race committee is a lot of entries. Why don't the 109's and 105's form one class? Race Committees try to divide classes into most like boats; maybe we separate too much. But, the rating band becomes too great. For the Spin W/L, we range from 33 to 120. This is about like the fairness of a pursuit race. I have had people argue with me on where the after-market sprit boats should race. This is a very tough call for race committee. I can only hope for a day with an increasing wind. I would have preferred to sail a distance course this weekend.

How do we get more boats? I don't know the secret, but it's somehow catering to one-design and pursuit style racing.

[Bee]

Big thanks to all the GBCA PRO, RC, and volunteers for trying to set up the course today. You guys rock.

Stinger saw a 33 knot gust with fairly steady 27 knot winds.  Was going to be a destroy something day.

[BJSailor]

The 3 boat one design class (J109) this weekend is exactly what I've been talking about in regards to class splits.  There could be a great class A with the 122, c&c115 and 3 J109s.  Then have the rest of the boats Melges 24, J-80, j-92s, J-70 and Pingo in Class B.  I would also add in the Ben 25 (which is another reason not to split the "factory vs non factory sprits".  When was the last time you saw 8 boats in a under 30' class with all relatively similiar design on GB? 

Where will the class split be if the 109s have there own class?  It's not fair racing for either end of the spectrum in the PHRF group.  I never recall sitting in a PHRF committee meeting and someone on the board ask "how well will a J-122 sail against a J-80"?   PHRF works with similiar boats of similiar size. 

Just my thoughts!

I've been listening to this thread for a while.  Kevin, you may have hit the nail on the head!  "PHRF works with similar boats of similar size."  We all know that conditions affect boats of similar size in a similar way.  Boats under 30' (arbitrary length split...) react similarly in wind and chop - big puffs overpower all boats and the all need to depower, short Galveston Bay chop is a challenge to drive for all.  Boats over 30' all benefit in light air from the small puffs aloft that the smaller boats can't reach and the larger boats can power through the chop much better than the smaller boats.
What caught my attention was the last sentence "PHRF works with similar boats of similar size". 
What about making the fleet splits more in line with boatlength vs. PHRF numbers?  Sure, you may get some broad handicap number splits.  But, if the wind and waves affect similar sized boats similarly, then their respective PHRF handicap should even out the differences.  In other words - SIZE MATTERS:-)

Caveat to the above - I don't want to enter the fray with regard to sym vs. asym or sprit vs. pole vs. factory-after-market-retrofit-sprit. 

Thoughts???