Scoring on Wednesday Night Races

[Tye Dyed Gary]

  First let me start by saying the WNR race committee does a great job that I / we cannot thank them enough, for there effort and time. Plus I. told Scott I was going to post this for general input.
  My complaint is with the extra complication and overall unfairness of High Point Scoring (HPS). There is a reason US Sailing abandoned high point scoring in the mid 90's. WNR does have the right to use any scoring method it chooses to use per rule 90.3(a), as log as it's posted in the NOR's.
  High point works for a single race but fails when combine with several races spread over several weeks for an overall totals. While there is only minor differences in say the first five boats total scores. It changes for those competitors further down in the scoring,(example... I score 15th with HPS but 8th using low point scoring). I was out scored by three boats that missed two series with HPS, yet when using low point I place higher, as did some other boats.
  I know over time I should improve and move up in the standings. Meanwhile, I think the scoring should reflect more accurate overall scores and standings for those that participate regularly vs those that only make it out occasionally for what ever reason.
  Plus it would be simpler to total scores using low point, as you could drop the step of converting to a percentage to come up with an arbitrary number based on a changing variable, (number  of boats in a given race / series).       
  I would like to see WNR go back to scoring as set forth  in Appendix A in the RRS 2017-2020.
  That's my two cents, fill free to poke as many hole in my argument as you can.
>>> This is NOT to imply that we should change the scoring method used for Rum Races.<<<

[ECSimonson]

I agree with all of Gary's points. Participation should count for something and I would be interested to see how the results would have been different had there been a low point scoring system in place.

That said, how can the fleet(s) effectively lobby the WNR race committee to change the scoring system in place?

[Rmiller1]

I know that the current scoring system had an impact on the outcome of the J/24 rankings last season, and at least 3 out of the 5 of us are in favor of changing to the RRS low point system (including the two skippers whose positions would have been reversed had the RRS system been used last season). Low point has the advantage of both rewarding boats for sailing every race, AND for finishing every race you start. That said, we don't oppose having some throw-aways baked in to the rules- these are summer races, after all.

In all other aspects, I'll echo Gary's sentiments that the Race Committee does an outstanding job running consistently fun races (And a great party to boot). It can't be easy trying to make everyone happy.

[STuma]

Thank you guys for giving your opinion. For the most part, I will listen to someone's comment/opinion, consider it, and give a reasoning for my idea.

I have posted on the CLRA site my plans for next year: http://clearlakeracing.com/index.php/from-scott-tuma/172-2018-season.

One of them is to simplify the scoring. I still feel high point is better for the WNR series. I will say I feel the opposite from Gary about the benefit of a single regatta vs a series event. If there are the same number of boats racing each race, it doesn't make a bit of difference. Under low point, first place always gets one point no matter if they beat 1 boat of 30 boats. But, throughout the year, several of the classes change number of participants each week. They can go from two to five to fifteen to ten; varying each week. I believe one should "be rewarded" for doing better in a larger fleet than a smaller fleet; winning against a 19 boat fleet versus a 3 boat fleet. Some have made the argument that the core participation of boats remains the same. Possibly so. I admit that the system we used last year was flawed. That's past. I am using a much simpler system that inverts the finishes; 10 boats racing, first receives 10 points, down to 10th place receives 1 point. If someone doesn't finish, they receive 0 points. The questions comes up of someone coming out, starting, withdrawing and wanting some sort of points for showing up. I'm not a fan of this because of the logistics of the r/c work tracking boats not finishing. It is a challenge at times "counting ducks" at the finish. This is something one has to experience first hand to fully understand, which I invite anyone to come observe on the boat to get a  grasp of it. It has been commented about someone coming out one time and winning a race with a large number of boats and winning the series because of high point. The J-22s have the largest number of boats topping at 19. So, who would be able to come out and race once and win the series? Beckman is out there. Flynn is there.  I think those two cover many national championships; and it hasn't happened yet. But, the average number would have to be low and then have a single race with a high number. With the competition level, that ain't going to happen. And if it does, that person deserves to win the series because they pulled the rabbit out of the hat in the big race. This simplified high point will reward people who sail every race and finishing every race one starts. But, if we want to really reward people who sail every race.... eliminate throw outs...

[Tye Dyed Gary]

  OK, I'm back with a minor rebuttal.  My first point still stands, there is a reason high point scoring was abandoned in the late 1990's
  Last year the J-22 fleet participation was between 7 and 19 boats on any given week. This brings me to this question, about the proposed scoring for this year. Why go to a modified version of the Rum Race scoring, where everyone after a given cutoff point only gets a participation point, instead of a scored finish? This further leads to, how do you score OCS, DNF, or DSQ's, as they should also be in the scoring system.
  Not in resent years, but in the past, I have been on the committee boat and do understand how hard it is to keep up with the numbers and fleets. I agree with Scott, that everyone should go out at least once to get a feel of just how challenging that job is. Be sure to thank every R/C member you can every time you see them for the job they do.   

[STuma]

  OK, I'm back with a minor rebuttal.  My first point still stands, there is a reason high point scoring was abandoned in the late 1990's
  Last year the J-22 fleet participation was between 7 and 19 boats on any given week. This brings me to this question, about the proposed scoring for this year. Why go to a modified version of the Rum Race scoring, where everyone after a given cutoff point only gets a participation point, instead of a scored finish? This further leads to, how do you score OCS, DNF, or DSQ's, as they should also be in the scoring system.
  Not in resent years, but in the past, I have been on the committee boat and do understand how hard it is to keep up with the numbers and fleets. I agree with Scott, that everyone should go out at least once to get a feel of just how challenging that job is. Be sure to thank every R/C member you can every time you see them for the job they do.   

As you point out, the J-22s had 7 to 19 boats. Someone who got first in a fleet where 19 boats finished, will receive 19 points and the 19th boat will receive one point, with the second place boat receiving 18 points and the 18th place boat receiving 2 points. Everyone who finishes, gets a point value.

With OCS, DNF, DSQ's; they receive 0 points. Only boats that finish receive points. This is an encouragement for the fleet to get people out, sailing and finishing.

As mentioned before, low point is fine when you have the same number of boats every races of the event. We don't. Some classes do. So, it doesn't make a difference.

[baileyrace]

The arguments for and against high score and low score have already been made. Just as my opinion, I would like, at least for my class to have the low point scoring system with the high score plus + 1 if you do not race. I will not complain whatever you decide. I did promise Gary that I would make my opinion known.

Throw outs baffle me. I have played stick and ball sports, road raced motorcycles, and raced cars. I had never heard of a throw out until I started sailing. I am curious why it ever got started in sailing.

[Tye Dyed Gary]

   I will hold judgement on your proposed high point scoring until the end of the 2018 WNR season. At that time, IF the overall totals are as messed up as the past two years, I will be back complaining again.
 
  As for the question of throw outs. There is nothing in the rules about them, and I have offend wondered about them. There was an extensive discussion on the subject in Sailing Anarchy a while back. The best I can til is, it is something an individual yacht club does to placate it's (type AA personality) members, to make their regatta score look better then it would with OCS, and DSQ because of their aggressive personalities.   

[Hamburger No 1]

The Racing Rules of Sailing do codify the throw-out: Appendix A2.1 states: Each boat's score shall, subject to rule 90.3 (b), be the total of her race scores excluding her worst score........It is expressly permitted to change this rule in the NOR or SI, but if both are silent on the matter the throw-out is included. I know, because I have on one occasion many years ago lost a regatta on this issue, where the race committee had not intended to have a throw-out, but did not specifically state that exception, and the ultimate winner pointed that out and prevailed. That was a GBCA race, no less! . Bu-huu!

[STuma]

The arguments for and against high score and low score have already been made. Just as my opinion, I would like, at least for my class to have the low point scoring system with the high score plus + 1 if you do not race. I will not complain whatever you decide. I did promise Gary that I would make my opinion known.

Throw outs baffle me. I have played stick and ball sports, road raced motorcycles, and raced cars. I had never heard of a throw out until I started sailing. I am curious why it ever got started in sailing.

Point noted.

There are definitely different opinions on throw outs. I personally feel sailboat racing has gone soft; catering to the "everyone deserves a trophy" idea. I am not a fan of throw outs, I think all races should be scored. This is a double edged sword, with this being a long series, it does become tough to get commitments for each race, but the ones who work hard to make the commitments should be recognized. I know several people that schedule vacations and such in ways to maximize a throw out. With the bye-weeks, it does make a different scenario....

With that, to change anything from the RRS, it must be noted (and is on WNR) of what the change is.