HYC Elissa Regatta April 2 & 3

[Bee]

Too bad we could not get several J111 sales here.  Might have kept the PHRF number reasonable.  Ahh, politics.

[BJSailor]

Politics???
I'd think it has more to do wit $$$'s
It's not that the J-Boat is overpirces, it't more about sailors being cheap bastards.

[Jeff K]

I find it funny. According to Bee it's already been decided, since the 111 kick our ass in one rum race. Now Kevin says the rum race that they won starting at 36 isn't fair. What is it with you j boat lovers???

All joking aside, there's nobody better at marketing than j boats, freaking nobody. The 111 in this market will be tough row to sow. A 300 k PHRF boat that's not faster than 10 year old boats at 1/5th the cost. This whole sport is just bizarre:-)

Then, if for some reason the 111 reaches one design mass, at what cost to the 105 and 109 classes. Or are there some rich guys waiting in the weeds for the 111 to come before they start racing??? I'm not saying the 111 isn't a good boat, I'm just saying... PHRF usually in the end gets the numbers right and in the end the 111 will end up with the right number. IMHO

[hayesrigging]

Actually I'm a Melges lover jeff!!!!  I agree phrf usually gets it right in the end and I wasn't referring to the rum race not being fair!!  It was two tight spinnaker reaches the 111 better beat the 1d35 in those conditions!!!! 

I do like the 111 though. Very nice boat to sail!!

[Bee]

Someone told me the wunder kinde at PHRF dropped the 111's handicap to 35.  If so, the duel should be quite interesting to watch. 

With Mike M driving and proper weight distribution the 111 should be able to go almost as deep as the 1D35.

Who knows?  Have to wait and see.

Another Kitterman comment - "According to Bee it's already been decided, since the 111 kick(ed) our ass in one rum race."  Looks like Jeff can't read to me.  What is it with you 1D35 owners???

[Jeff K]

Bee, I was going off of your DONE comment but my comments towards you and Kevin were tongue in cheek. Trust me Bee we all know you love your 105 and Kevin we pretty much run in the same circles, no hating here. My point was, I personally think Scott is going to have a hard time selling the 111. Is it a nice boat, yes from what I've seen. Kevin even though you like it would you pay 300+ k for it? Even if someone just gave you 300k cash?

Trust me I can't afford it and maybe that makes me bias, crap I had to go into thirds in a 68k boat. Even if I did have the money it would be hard for me to justify buying a 111 when I could go buy 5 1D35's or 3 Melges 32"s which are as fast or faster for the same cost. I guess I expected the boat to be much faster than it is, since it's 2011, Plus now guys that are sailing it are saying it's not as fast as it's rating. Now my second point, if anyone can do it, J Boats can. Just my opinion and I hope Scott sells a bunch of them so we have more boats to race against. Maybe Scott will read this and explain it's nitch that I don't see.

[BoomerangJ]

Leave it to Jonesy to stir the pot.  Leave it to me to take the bait!  Which I probably shouldn't, but here goes! This thread is really broaching a lot of topics:  Boat costs, value, PHRF ratings, target markets, etc.

Boat Value:  A few quick Google searches returned the following:  Summit 35 around $295k, (sailaway-mid $300's), The base price for a Santa Cruz 37 is $330k.  Base Price for a J/111 is $244,950.00.  The base price for a 1D35 in 2002 was $145k.  Assuming a 6% factor for raw material, labor, inflation, etc a 1D35 today would have a base price of $248,810.  Yup-new boats are expensive.  Wish they weren't.  It's happening on the motorboat side as well.  With oil doing what it's doing-they will get more expensive. 

Google on images for the above mentioned boats and you will find that the Summit, SC37, and the J/111 are all standing head room with full interiors, complete with v-berth, cushions, heads, galley, etc.  It's built to be a fast racer/cruiser.  Several companies think this is a viable market.

Our sport is full of boat designs that have been built for a rating rule, a class, etc. that was not sustainable, putting fast boats into the market at cheap prices.  Nothing wrong with picking up these boats and racing in PHRF fleets, and having fun with them.  Every PHRF fleet has them.  On YW you can pick up Corel 45 for $140k, Mumm 36 for $80k.  I was talking to a guy in California that owns a IOR 50' boat that was very well known and the various owners probably ran hundreds of thousands through that boat.  He gave it away, because he couldn't sell it. I bet the PHRF rating on that boat was killer-for free!  The point is there are a lot of race horses around that can be bought cheap and raced at a great PHRF rating.

J/Boats have been successful with various designs because of One Design racing.  There is no other reason new J/24's can be bought 32 years after being launched.  The J/105 is the most successful design over 30' world wide.  Fleet 1 in San Francisco has 90 J/105's in it.  All sustainable because of the class rules and class association make it less expensive then an all out Grand Prix design.  Melges 32's were mentioned in the post above.  Great value at $115k for a used boat.  However the people that compete at the highest level spend that money, and more each year to campaign it.  I sold two 2001 J/105's in the last month for an average of $91k each.  They were bought new, full up with sails for around $135k in 2001.  The math says these boats cost their owners about $4400/year.  Not bad!  A 1D35 all up was probably about $200k and can be bought for $50k.  $15k year plus a whole lot more in sails.  The RC44 is the big boy on the block now with it's WW circuit-I bet we can get used RC44's in ten years for a fraction of the cost that they are getting now.  J/Boats learned their lesson with boats designed to a rating.  There are a couple of old IOR designed J/Boats that can't be given away.  While the J/80's, J/105's, J/22's, J/120's are all holding their value.  The niche for the J/111 is the 36 foot racer cruiser that will race OD.  Fleet 1 has formed in Chicago with 8 boats sold.  Looks like fleets will form in Annapolis, SoCal, and NoCal, possibly Seattle.  The UK dealer has sold 14 boats and there are other boats sold in at least five or 6 other countries.  With 62 US orders in the first year-the boat is off to a good start.  The class rules are written to control sail expenses, owner-professionals, etc.  ISAF has reviewed the rules and the boat has qualified for international OD status-far quicker then any other over 30 foot boat-ever-even faster then the J/105.

The boat is not intended to be a rocket ship like a Melges 32 or a 1D35.  It's an easy to sail racer/cruiser that is comfortable.  The boat has a great feel to it.  Like all J/Boats it's helmsman oriented.  The helmsman can handle the main and jib by him/herself for a day sail.  The cockpit is super comfortable and ergonomic for the full race crew-we raced with 8 and 9 for Elissa and no one was in the way and each job could be done in multiple positions. It could easily be raced with 5-7 and several have been purchased for solo and double handed events. The helm has a really light and responsive feel.  The feedback is incredible-you can feel when one crew member moves 6 inches, or any sail control is adjusted.  During the Icicle under tight spin reaches in medium air the helm was one finger control.  Just a super easy boat to sail and responsive.  Above all it's an asymmetrical boat-I will never go back to a symmetrical boat.  Just not as much fun and easy to handle as an A-sail boat.  The people that have contacted me on the boat are people that are coming out of bigger non-JBoats and want something that's faster and "comfortable enough".  Very few of the prospects are J/105 owners (none) and just one or two J/Boat owners.  I expect that the owners in the J/105 and J/109 fleets will stick and possibly grow these fleets.  Hope so both great boats for the bay. Racing OD on the 80's, 105's and 109's is great fun!   The 22 and 24 fleets have great local support and are getting more folks out. I hope that these OD fleets stick and grow.  (In San Francisco I imagine some of the 89 J/105 owners will jump to a J/111).  Most of my prospects are in the Dallas area and it looks like the first one will be sold this week to a Dallas owner.  Probably will move 007 up to Dallas (It's rated 42 up there) because that is where the activity has flared up.  Initially the niche here in Texas will be the owner that wants a comfortable boat to sail fast.  36-42 PHRF rating is a quick boat.  The only way a OD fleet will come about is if a few "spark plugs" jump in and get things going.  Looks like there will be a OD start at Block Island Race week this year. Maybe a few more OD starts at other events.  In a down economy the J/111 launch has been highly successful-It's looking like they have the right boat for the 36' performance racer/cruiser market. We shall see what happens from here.

The rating: 
J/111: LOA 36.5  LWL 32.7 Disp: 9300 pounds Beam 10.77 I:48.37, J: 13.85 P: 45.17 E: 14.5  Punching these numbers into the formulas on the GBPHRF page yields a SA/D ratio for the J/111 of 23.97.  Same process for the 1D35 yields a SA/D of 31.04.  Hmmmh!  Quite a difference!  1D35 displaces 6550 pounds.  Almost 3000 pounds lighter then a J/111.  I was warned about this before the J/111 came in and will probably have to play all of the games of re-applying, etc., etc., etc.  -or move the boat to Dallas!  But then again it's PHRF which is really an attempt to rate cruiser/racer boats to race.  I was told 15 years ago that it is best to approach PHRF with a sense of humor.  I display my OD trophies, even circuit stops-My PHRF trophies are stuffed away somewhere.  OD racing is real racing.  PHRF is for fun, however some people work so hard to get an advantage (changing keels, re-rigging the mast for bigger sails, FR to MH) that in a  lot of ways one can argue that PHRF is bad for participation as most believe it to be political and not fair.  Lastly check out the "eligibility" definition from the GBPHRF site:

    "Any self-righting keel boat with a cabin, sleeping accommodations, cooking facilities & head. Yachts that are considered to be ultra-light or racing under a one design rating rule will not be eligible. Final eligibility determination will be at the discretion of the fleet's captain or the race committee."

I don't know if the J/111 deserves a 36 or not. Time will tell.  The only other J/111 that I could find rated a 36 is one that is optimized for point to point racing.  They have added a fixed prod with a roller furling screecher.  They just completed a 4 day offshore race in California and I believe placed second in their class.  Mine is OD sails, OD trim-nothing optimized for PHRF.

Sorry for the long answer but just throwing out smack talk wasn't the right approach for these topics. 

[Jonsey]

Hey man, it was not intent to stir any pot.  Your 111 is the new kid on the block.  Kittypants has been kicking butt with that 35 (took a piece of mine this past weekend).  I want to see them line up.   It?s pretty ?out of the box? for jboats in terms of a design ? thus the curiosity.   Glad Kevin pointed out the Charleston 111, I?ll watch those results too. 

I kind of wish Jboat?s would slow down and not introduce something new to the market every year.   It would take a little pressure off spark-plugs like Bee who are holding fleet?s together.    Had the 109 not been introduced there would still be a strong 105 fleet in FW and a stronger fleet in Houston.   Sucks for the 105 spark plug in San Fran if as you say they loose a bunch of boat?s to another fleet.  But, Jboats is in the boat business to make money, and you certainly can?t argue their strategy is not working. 

As to the ?eligibility? def. from PHRFGB..  that would exclude a number of boat?s including J22?s, J24?s, J80?s and a whole host of other boat?s that would like to participate in the sport of sailboat racing on Galveston Bay.   It is my humble (always) opinion that we should band together and do whatever necessary to be more ?inclusive?  - to promote the sport of sailboat racing.   Not orphan someone who owns a boat that doesn?t ?fit?, all while doing our best to maintain fair competition.   We try to do this with the sportboats by combining fleets or having an overall handicap fleet with a second award for an orphan boat? make sure everyone get?s to play.   Which is why, coincidently I complained about the NOOD regatta's exclusion of a PHRF fleet... and will continue not to support ANY major regatta that excluded PHRF fleets or were exclusive to one manufacturer.