Is there going to be a big boat class at the Houston Nood? Marty is listed as Class Coordinator and has not been heard from. Greg Way proposed using 66-84 as the class limits. He has the ulterior motive of wanting proof that his rating is too low. Maybe there are out of area boats or other boats that are larger and longer than the old L70 rule but rate in the band. Chiron? Sea Quell? Or others that would just like to party. I think we need five boats to even have a chance for an invitation. I, for one, am willing to race against *#^$%@ J109's if they do not make a class. How about it? Who is willing to step up? Are we
Or am I going to have to charter a J22 and race against Tom Sutton and Larry Blankenhagen anyway???
Level ? 70? How about no rules in this knife fight? :o
Millennium Express
Leading Edge
Parrot Tales
Gold Rush
J109's
Out of area boats (Dallas? New Orleans, Corpus???)
Level? 30
Mojo
Re-evolution 1D35
J120
J122
King 40
Alinghi cat
Who is in and who is out?
John Butler
HYDRODYN will be racing in the NOOD.
Although none of us have registered yet (Sept. 14 deadline) Level 70 (69-84, symmetric kites only) could have:
HYDRODYN
Millennium Express
Leading Edge
Parrot Tales
I talked to the NOOD coordinator about class size. They realize that hurricane Ike put the hurt on us, but they are very anxious to have a good turnout anyway. As such, they may be willing to allow classes with less than 6 boats.
Suggest the 109's try to turn out at least 4 boats.
Alternatively, the 109's could join up with other A-Kites to form a larger class.
Take Care
Marty
Well, now we know what it takes to hear from Marty.
Still looking for options with more boats (like say... some I can beat!!)
Another consideration. NOOD has broken the ice on taking times with the sport boat class. They are running as a handicap class, why couldn't we??
How many J109's are there and how many are entering.
Still looking for answers. (and questions)
Oh, and by the way, I don't give a ____ for what happens to a level 30 class. Just thought it might be fun to watch. Much rather they did not get organized so we could pirate some of their crew.
John
Will Surprise, Gambler and OtraVez be back in time?
???
Why exclude assym boats from the Level 70 fleet?
Plus Uno
GBCA should be a trend setter and do a "Spares Cup" the same weekend as the NOOD in which the local PHRF racers get to race without us one design boats on their starts. Coordinate it with HYC/LYC and let them pick up the bar proceeds and I suspect you'd have a deal.....
Quote from: Jonsey on July 31, 2009, 11:47:49 PM
Why exclude assym boats from the Level 70 fleet?
This comes from some traditional thinking and from the fact that most of the times we have raced, even handicap, against the J109's they have inordinately cleaned our clock. Downwind tactics vary and even upwind, they sail "differently". Personally, I am out there to have fun and win by stealth and skill, not having the fastest boat, by a mile. Per my original post, I have no objections to racing with them, as opposed to the dreaded J22 option.
Looking for debate.
btw Kevin, the NOOD organizers were really down on that sort of thing (concurrent events not under their sanction) in the past. But someone should ask the question.
j
Run the concurrent event, charge the same entry as people are paying to sail in the NOOD.. all proceeds go to the evening events.
I think i'll have detoxed by then (Texas Race Week)
A Level 30 class is in the works. Out of town boats are showing interest in coming.
One thing that has never made sense: the level 70 class has been hurting for years & they would rather exclude A-boats instead of having them join for a larger class... The "anti-sportboat" rule was in place when there were 8-10 70 boats racing every regatta... That is not the case now... The class has been suffering and people want to become picky on the participants? If the ratings are correct, the symetrical boats "should" have a large advantage on a windward-leeward course? Even if they have a 10 second/mile "advantage", wouldn't smart sailing make the field even? 20 seconds in a race is nothing, many give that up at the start, and mark roundings, and bad tacks... I think at this point, with the economy and the participation falling, we do not need to be picky on who to allow to race... Just my thoughts...
cheers...
Scott
I used to think that it was kind of dumb to not allow the 109's to be part of the level 70 class. Lately I have come to change my mind. There are three reasons for this. The first has to do with the ease of hoisting, dousing, and gybing an A-Kite vs a symmetric. The second has to do the the current A-Kite "runner" designs. The third is not so easy for me to explain, so I will leave it under the category of hull/keel/rudder design differences.
In my opinion the biggest difference between the A's and the Sym's is handling ease. This is especially true for the smaller A-Kites (80's and 105's). I have timed us against a couple of the best symmetric boats. Even in the best situation, the timing difference can be significant. A's can come into the mark at speed and wait until the last moment to douse. They can hoist at the windward mark as fast or faster than almost any symmetric. In addition, there is little loss of speed during a gybe. Once the patterns are down, handling the chute is almost too easy. Don't get me wrong, excellent crew work can minimize these issues to some extent, and certainly there are Sym crews here on the bay that perform these functions with great acumen, but I believe the handling advantage will always reside with the A's.
The first A-Kites might best be described as "reachers". They were very fast when the TWA was around 160-165 degrees and could handle very high TWAs'. It was at best difficult to rotate these kites for anything close to downwind sailing. Newer designs have pretty much resolved this issue. Ed Christie built a 110 sq. mt. for me that could pretty much duplicate the angle of a symmetric. (Too bad it got destroyed in the last rum race storm. Hurts to have been able to use it only twice.) Not going to speculate about whether or not the A-Kites are faster dead-down then a symmetric, but there is no question that the angle difference between a sprit boat and a symmetric are no longer very great.
Judging from observation, its very easy to sail the current A-Kites to their numbers. I have watched the 109's just kill everyone in light air and have seen the same thing happen with the 105's in heavy air. When a 105 outruns a J44 downwind one can only conclude that hull/keel/rudder design differences are at work. Same is true for the M32's. I just cannot conceive of an older design Sym staying with the 32 off wind.
Having said all that it would be interesting to see how a Level 70 class might shake out with 109's included. My guess is that the 109's would dominate, but that there would be at least a couple of very competitive Sym's in the pack. We do after all have some really great sailors here. I think we all know who they are. On the other hand dominance of the 109's might do significant damage to participation in the Level 70 fleet. This potential to suppress participation is why, if I own a Level 70 Sym, I would probably vote against their inclusion.
BTW, neither the 80's, 105's, or 109's can technically be classed as sport boats. Their SA/Disp ratio is less than 30 --- the break point for sport vs sprit. At something like 45, its clear that the M32 is definitely a sport boat.
Bee, I agree fully... I have been running Asymmetricals for 19 years now... but, my point/question is two fold (for the fleet); if a class is going to limit who can sail, they should not complian about low participation... And, the rating of the boat should factor in the "ease" of sailing the design provides... not fully suggesting the 109's should have a lower rating and not eligible for the class, that is another point... but, if a boat falls into the rating range, why not let them in? I have always been up for a challange and limited because it is an uphill battle (that's why we sailed a light air boat in 25-28 knots of wind)... I personally think the 109's are rated too slow, but that is another committee's decision... but a boat shouldn't be limited because they have a sprit or their SA/DISP ratio... The M24 has fought this battle for years... I think we are limiting our selves and killing the sport... things change, and we have to adapt to that... I remember comments about an A-boat will never win because they cannot sail down wind... That was a long time ago and proves that sailing does evolve, even when it is held back...
cheers...
Scott
This conversation has been had before. The original intent was for very similar boats to race heads-up in the 70's band. If the boats are racing to thier individual handicap in level 70 then what is the point of excluding all boats in that rating band? In defense of the 109's they are the newest boats ie...the fastest they will ever be, as well as; upon observation, the boats making the fewest mistakes on the race course. Rate the boat not the sailor.
Regards,
Hmmmmm... I seem to be experiencing what a friend would call cognitive dissonance.
If symetric spin boats and a-sym spin boats have the same PHRF rating for windward / leeward courses and the a-sym boats seem to constantly beat the symetric boats, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the PHRF numbers are out of whack? I mean, after all, isn't the idea of PHRF to handicap similar boats so that they correct out in a competitive fashion? All this about hoisting / dousing, wind angles, sail cuts, etc. doesn't add up if the handicap formula assignments rate the boats as similar. Either the J/109s and symetric old-boys rate the same, or they don't. the PERFORMANCE part of PHRF may be a factor here if the 109s are able to execute sail change and maneuver evolutions faster / better than their symetric equivalents. If the traditional Level 70 boats don't want the 109s playing in their sandbox, maybe they ought to lobby for a rating change for the 109s. It seems they have grounds... Alternatively, maybe the 109s could set / douse a little slower, sail a little lower, take a bit longer to gybe. But then I guess Rule 2 would come into play:-)
In the end, this age-old argument has been discussed ad nauseum before and has generate many thousands of $'s for Mt. Gay and other rum brewers in the course of bar arguements. In fact, it earned them another couple of oz. worth or revenue while I posted this ;D
Would it make any sense to actually do something quantative to measure the equality / disparity between these boats? What about a number of windward legs sailed over about a 2nm course to get a number of data points from a number of bothe J/109s and symetric Level-70s. Add in some leeward legs and we can have some solid numbers to go forward to either ask PHRFGB for a change or for everyone to play happy TOGETHER! Just an idea...
You wanted discussion John... :o
I agree with Mark about rating the boat not the sailor. I have won and lost against the L70s on 109s and have never thought there was a rating problem. When we have won, we sailed with few mistakes, and when we lost, there was probably yelling you could hear from downtown, but we certainly didn't blame it on the rating. Yes the boats sail differently downwind, but if asyms had the advantage there, why wouldnt the L70 guys be at their sailmaker having A kites made to run off the pole?...it can be done. Typically I thought it was us on the Asyms who were afraid of the Syms killing us on the downwind leg.
About the NOOD. This is a one-design race that brings in out of town boats and you guys are bickering about who to let in for a NON one-design class. Two of the L70 owners have J22s, and there are numerous other crew who have J/24s and the like. Why not ditch the L70 debate and go sail one-design like the regatta intends?
Just a fun idea for the future and the rating debate....we could have a fun regatta where all the Asym guys sail the Sym boats and vice versa. This would shed some light on the whether or not we (Asyos) could jibe a pole and if yall could muscle the huge kite around. This might shed some light on whether the boat or the sailors are being judged here. If nothing else it would probably provide for some good laughs :D.
Finally, we have an idea. Off topic, but an idea. How about we get the Wed nite pontoon boat out and use it to rotate crew between races at the NOOD? Or on some other regatta. WOW.
As to the back and forth on J109's vs L70's, the issue is not whether badly sailed boats win or well sailed boats lose. It is that well sailed 109's beat well sailed Syms in All conditions.
And by the way, has anyone, including the organizers, thought through the FACT that the level 70 class with 4 boats represents the same number of people at the party as 10 J22's and a lot fewer trophies.
But who is counting.
That was exactly my point... if a boat has a certain rating, how sails are hoisted and the other physical dimensions, are factored in... therefore, a boat with a chute launcher, gets penalitized for that convience... isn't that why carbon masts are deducted?
I like the idea... could even have it where they sail the same course; 3 tacks on the windward... take the tacktics out of it... basically do a "speed" run course... This would take a long time and lots of effort... Great idea, just not very practical... With crews learning the A-boats more, they should progress through the rankings, but not the entire class should dominate the top of the class... Sorry, but there is not one group that is that good... There is something wrong with a rating when in PHRF fleet they are dominating the class, but in a different one-design, they struggle to get into top 1/3... In the one-designs, the top sailors (ones that have one nationals/worlds) get beat every so often (it does happen)... So, shouldn't the results in PHRF vary as well? The Level 70 fleet used to have some close racing and everything came down to the last race, usually with 2-4 boats tied for a placement...
My main point is; can't we all get along? I grew up with this type of segregation racing multi-hulls... I actually do laugh because the sport boats are now experiencing what the multi's have experienced for the last 30+ years... It does feel like the phrase "... we don't want your kind here..."
can sport boats and traditional boats sail competitively together, no... the designs are too different... depending on the wind strength, everyone will perform differently... Like racing against the J30, when the wind blew over 18, your racing for second place... just the difference is greater now... But, even with the traditional boats, there tends to be a performance difference with wind speed, so that cannot be an excuse...
I say, if the rating fits, sail it....
cheers...
Scott
Quote from: Big John on August 04, 2009, 10:13:25 AM
Finally, we have an idea. Off topic, but an idea. How about we get the Wed nite pontoon boat out and use it to rotate crew between races at the NOOD? Or on some other regatta. WOW.
As to the back and forth on J109's vs L70's, the issue is not whether badly sailed boats win or well sailed boats lose. It is that well sailed 109's beat well sailed Syms in All conditions.
And by the way, has anyone, including the organizers, thought through the FACT that the level 70 class with 4 boats represents the same number of people at the party as 10 J22's and a lot fewer trophies.
I guess the J-44 is an anomaly?????????
But who is counting.
I'm curious why GBCA would want fewer entry fees and more people at the party?
Kevin,
Of course, GBCA wants us all in single handed boats and too tired to come to the party. Given.
Not so with NOOD and the Yacht clubs. NOOD makes a lot of money off sales of shirts, etc at these events. The yacht clubs make oodles off drinks and actually improve their cost ratios on the food they sell if more tickets are sold. Overall, the economic result improves if more people show up. Plus, the regatta's reputation builds if more people show up.
Keep it up folks. This is good stuff.
There was mention of conditions influencing results in L70. Everyone remembers when you could look at the wind speed and know who was going to be competing with Leading edge for the trophy. Did the sailing skills on Heat Wave or Predator (RIP) change on the basis of the wind? Are the sailing skills on LE that good? One wonders? But that is also off topic.
Kenai = Asyo's worst nightmare!
John, if you are for more people participating in the NOOD party (more crew on big boats vs small on 22s), then why would side with the 109s being left out? I would like to hear some of the 109 owners POVs on this issue...Al? Jim?...i see you lurking in here
Oops...sorry John, misread about you wanting them left out...this is just discussion. :)
Evan,
I don't think the issue is the 109's being left out... this hasn't been an issue because in the last few years, the 109's had enough for a class and they did not consider being in the L70 class... in the beginning of the class, when the rules were being discussed, the group decided on a SA/DISP ratio to have as a cut off... That had to be changed, because it excluded the J35... I think the original intent of the class was good, narrow the qualifications to make the class one-design-ish... Not have boats too far on either side of the spectrum... But, times have changed... It really doesn't matter to me what the rules are for L70, I just think that it does not make much sense to limit the entries when we are struggling for entries... If we wanted to end this discussion real quick, change the rating parameters to 70-79 PHRF... That shoots out the 109's automatically... Which brings the issue of the 10R... Has anyone tried to get Mike out? I am trying to get more boats out so we can increase the participation on the water... In regards to the party, we all know which club(s) cater to the party and have the regatta as a cover... It would be really nice to have all three clubs work together (use each strength) to put on a stellar regatta... maybe the NOOD needs to be that way? make it a Galveston Bay effort rather than HYC or LYC event...
Even with that being said, we need to get the kids out... We need to invite them on the big boats and have them involved... once they race Lasers and V15's for several years, where do they go? Many of them do not have the opportunity to sail a big boat... They don't have to drive, have them crew even... They are our future... We have been lacking and it is showing...
cheers...
Scott
I definately agree that the most important thing is encouraging the most participation possible. Wasn't that the initial motivation for the L70 class in the first place?
There is a definate lack of youth sailors around my age (23) and I am not quite sure why but something needs to be done! Maybe I should just hastle my friends more...
Quote from: Big John on August 05, 2009, 09:09:31 AM
Kevin,
Of course, GBCA wants us all in single handed boats and too tired to come to the party. Given.
Not so with NOOD and the Yacht clubs. NOOD makes a lot of money off sales of shirts, etc at these events. The yacht clubs make oodles off drinks and actually improve their cost ratios on the food they sell if more tickets are sold. Overall, the economic result improves if more people show up. Plus, the regatta's reputation builds if more people show up.
Big John, have you ever volunteered to work one of GBCA regatta's and sell shirts, plan the food and booze intake and promote the race to get ALL the boats we possibly can to come and race AND have a successful party for all of our participants? ... I am not involved in all this talk about L70's and who should be in what class or if you can play nice together...but when it comes to what GBCA offers after the races...now that's were you step into another arena of racing that I am experienced. If a person hasn't volunteered to work our regatta's then how would they know what GBCA wants from their sailors at these post race parties? I'm just curious...do you not think that GBCA would not want to see economic results improve in our club or the reputation of our regatta's continue to expand? I know I do. I've seen single-handed sailors come in tired after the races, but they come in and enjoy themselves, take a breather and relax after a good race. It is the sailors decision whether they want to come and enjoy GBCA libations and food for almost nothing in cost.
By the way I still have some TRW shirts for sale as well as the GBCA logo shirts and don't forget about our new order of GBCA tervis tumblers that will soon arrive!..........now did you honestly think I was going to let that opportunity slip by! ;D
Sorry guys...back to your regular discussion! ::)
KathyR,
I would suggest that you do your research before you jump on the "... you dont' do anything" band-wagon... I will have to say that John does his part in the community... For years I don't know, he has done race committee for the Wednesday Night Races (& your welcome to come out on the boat and help there); where he has assisted with course set up, boat check in and scoring... I know he has done it for more than 5 years, but I will use 5 as a round number: 6 series per year, 4 races per series: 24 races/year *5 years = 120 races... Who in this area can say they have helped with 120 races? He is very aware of what goes into a regatta, he has done more for racing than we will know... Doing race sommittee for the Wednesday Nights is an intergrated process, Buddy and his crew makes sure everything is as perfect as possible ( I am not as much)... I recommend every racer on Galveston Bay come out for 1 week and see what is involved and how to run a proper race... Galveston Bay has gotten a bad reputation (nation wide) about their races... This group is working on fixing that... With that, I will have to say that Dwight and his crew has been doing a spectacular job on changing that as well...
back to the topic...
"Of course, GBCA wants us all in single handed boats and too tired to come to the party. Given."
Huh? I had to read that twice.
Can I pretend I never read that on the ForRum?
Sorry but I'm pushing the BS button on that one... ***BEEP***
::)
"you don't do anything band-wagon"
What? where? What wagon? I didn't read that at all.
Where's my button?
We all know John consistantly does his part with Wed, and promoting L70 class. That effort is most appreciated. As you may or may not know, Buddy a little shy to ask for help. John's the man in that department.
But volunteering for RC on Wednesday Night races compared to doing everything (and I mean everything) involved with organizing multiple full blown 3 day out of town regattas are two different things...
Months of planning, securing sponsors, race committee, parties, merchandise, food, promotion, awards...all while staying in budget, keeping a real job, and clinging to some form of sanity.
The effort is nothing short of monumental.
Kathy gets the job done, and can run circles around all of you guys.
She's just one among several unsung heros of GBCA...we're quite lucky to have such talent
;)
Now back to topic:
I'll make a general statement: Try to get the boats out there and try to make a class. If we don't, who's to say they won't move the event to say, Dallas or Austin?
Quote from: STuma on August 06, 2009, 08:59:23 AM
KathyR,
I would suggest that you do your research before you jump on the "... you dont' do anything" band-wagon... I will have to say that John does his part in the community... For years I don't know, he has done race committee for the Wednesday Night Races (& your welcome to come out on the boat and help there); where he has assisted with course set up, boat check in and scoring... I know he has done it for more than 5 years, but I will use 5 as a round number: 6 series per year, 4 races per series: 24 races/year *5 years = 120 races... Who in this area can say they have helped with 120 races? He is very aware of what goes into a regatta, he has done more for racing than we will know... Doing race sommittee for the Wednesday Nights is an intergrated process, Buddy and his crew makes sure everything is as perfect as possible ( I am not as much)... I recommend every racer on Galveston Bay come out for 1 week and see what is involved and how to run a proper race... Galveston Bay has gotten a bad reputation (nation wide) about their races... This group is working on fixing that... With that, I will have to say that Dwight and his crew has been doing a spectacular job on changing that as well...
back to the topic...
Not mention John's involvment with LYC in putting on their big regattas, specifically Harvest Moon and others. And then he comes out to race.
back to the topic...
Quote from: Big John on July 31, 2009, 11:47:18 AM
Or am I going to have to charter a J22 and race against Tom Sutton and Larry Blankenhagen anyway???
Level ? 70? How about no rules in this knife fight? :o
Millennium Express
Leading Edge
Parrot Tales
Gold Rush
J109's
Out of area boats (Dallas? New Orleans, Corpus???)
Who is in and who is out?
John Butler
Well John, you and Tom are the only ones who have not yet signed up. Larry and Marty are already in. Looks like the Vipers and the Cat22 are the only ones putting together classes. None of the other J's.
I know it's a few weeks out yet, but why is it everyone always waits until the last minute to register? I would think there might be more of a draw, especally from the out-of-town boats to see a long list early, and think 'I gotta get into this fracas'; instead of seeing a short list and think, 'why bother'.
My $0.02
Quote"Of course, GBCA wants us all in single handed boats and too tired to come to the party. Given."
Huh? I had to read that twice.
Can I pretend I never read that on the ForRum?
Sorry but I'm pushing the BS button on that one... ***BEEP***
"you don't do anything band-wagon"
What? where? What wagon? I didn't read that at all.
Where's my button?
Plus Uno
Plus WTF?
Here's the button: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umFFg6-cHX4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umFFg6-cHX4)
We think it's always a good idea to get registered ASAP - people watch those lists to decide if it's worth traveling down for the regatta. The single / Mixed double for example.. the wife and I want to bring our boat down and do the regatta but the entries looks pretty dismal at this point. In the Viper fleet - we've taken an example from Charleston Race Week.. the class was aggressive in getting everyone who was set on coming to register early. We had over 20 entries before there were a total of 20 other boats registered. That got a bunch of "fence sitters" to make the jump. The class thought they might get 25 boats and ended up with 34! Register early and often! We were the first ones to register for TRW hoping it would draw out some other boats.
Regarding participation.. We vipers were pretty confident we could make a fleet for the NOOD but are not sure with the NA's the weekend prior and a circuit stop the following weekend. Based on that we thought we might only get 5 or 6 so we decided it would be far more fun to have a larger, inclusive fleet and use a handicap system - even if it's not going to be a perfect situation. We also thought that an inclusive "sportboat" fleet would draw out some of the Ultimate 20's that have been sitting idle... several at lake Conroe and one in Austin that we know of... hopefully we'll be joined by a M20, M24 and stray I550 etc... I can tell you now the winner may not likely be the best sailors but it will be great to get everyone out an involved.
For myself and most of the people i sail with it's not about getting 1st place silver but about testing yourself.. Regardless of how close the boats rate if it's not true OD - 1st place always comes with a ?. So assume you open Level 70 up and three J109's enter.. If you finished 4th then you could certainly feel pretty good. If you picked one or two off, all the better!
Seems we spend more time off topic than on, but I just wanted to tip my hat to Kathy and all the other organizers and participants who make things happen on the bay. I do have some appreciation about the effort in major regattas, as I also am on the HMR and LYC race committee, although missing a lot of meetings this year because of uh, duh, racing. If you need something done that does not require race day attention, let me know. For as long as I am able, come race day, I will be on the water. And quite honestly, the Wednesday night gig is because I cannot be on the water in any of those boats without sinking it. btw doing that has put me in position to learn a lot about sailing from Buddy and others. But this is not about me. btw, Kathy, the comment that led to mine seems lost in the shuffle.
Quote from: KevinBednar on August 04, 2009, 07:23:06 PM
I'm curious why GBCA would want fewer entry fees and more people at the party?
The whole point of this thread is that if the same four tired boats show up with the same set of ridiculous rules (which I wrote, by the way!!) there will be neither growth nor enjoyment in the regatta. The challenge is to get some new boats out there. There is not now, nor ever was there a doubt that the remaining four "old L70" boats would sign up. Only hope is that someone else climbs out of the woodwork and challenges them. WHATEVER THEIR SHAPE OR SIZE.
One of the reasons I started this was to help the guys with options (Tom and Larry) make their decision about whether to go big boat or retreat to their J22. And maybe to scare up some other folks.
J
John does have good concern, if Tom and Larry decide to race one design (hense the spirit of the NOOD), the L70 class looses 2 boats, which kills the class... finding 2 people would be much nicer than 7... Is there any way to scavange up some of the other boats that rate 70-79 that could race? maybe get rid of the other restrictions... but, it is their class...
anyone remember the original question???
Quote from: Big John on August 06, 2009, 03:51:58 PM
The whole point of this thread is that if the same four tired boats show up with the same set of ridiculous rules (which I wrote, by the way!!) there will be neither growth nor enjoyment in the regatta. The challenge is to get some new boats out there.
Time to change the rules, then?
;)
I agree, which is up the L70 group... they wrote them... and up to the race organizers to recgonize the class...
cheers...
Scott
Why all the grief about L70s? For years, those boats have fielded a class at every major regatta in this area almost every time. Other than PHRF, you can usually count on the Level 70s to make a Class. J/22s, J/24s, J/80s, J//105s, J/109s (see a theme here) certainly haven't shown such consistent participation.
No, I'm not crazy about some of their rules and preferences, but the Level 70s certainly do make their case by walking the walk. Maybe some of the talkers ought to try walking. If you don't like the way the Level 70s manage their own successful sandbox, then go build your own sandbox. Look what the SOS sailors have accomplished in forming and managing their own unique class that has successfully filled a niche in our sailing community. Level 70s have managed to meld a variety of Apples while excluding Oranges. SOS lets in different fruits (no offense intended) that all play by the same rules. If you can form an elite class of boats who exclusively use Banks Sails, you may have a new animal - have at it. The point is that we desperately need to increase participation and the fun factor. Not everyone enjoys trading fiberglass at the weather mark - some enjoy racing aroung rigs and government marks (a la Bay Cup). The real question is how we get 100+ boats on the lines for the NOOD - not trolling about the perceived shortcomings of a 5 boat class. As Rodney King so eloquently said (tongue firmly in cheek) "Why can't we all just get along?"
I think I'll take a pass on the L70 discussion.
But Scott, you?re totally off base about Galveston RC. I have been racing around the country and I can tell you that 2 out of the 3 clubs here on the bay are as good if not better at running races. Even LYC has made big steps of improvement in their RC game in the past couple of years.
As far as Wednesday nights, you guys and Buddy do a fantastic job, no change for me. Also, feel free to holler at me if I?m in my powerboat and you need me to go move a mark or marks at the last minute.
Quote from: STuma on August 06, 2009, 08:59:23 AM
Galveston Bay has gotten a bad reputation (nation wide) about their races...
Say what??!!!
Borracho,
I?m as puzzled as you on that comment and must take exception. I imagine the 11 US Sailing Certified Race Officers in the area and the hundred other volunteers do as well.
To answer a previous question, GBCA, HYC and LYC all have US Sailing Certified Race Officers on their respective RC?s. I am a CRO at GBCA. Fleet Captain, Jim Powers has passed the advanced test and lacks one race as PRO to complete his experience requirements. You must serve as PRO four times in the US, as well as serve at least twice at each position on the RC to fulfill your experience requirement. US Sailing has an online reporting system for RC members to log their experience. It?s called SOARS. How?s that for number of acronyms in one paragraph?
The candidate slated for 2010 Fleet Captain for GBCA is a US Sailing Certified Race Officer.
I sometimes begin to wonder why so many give up so much of their free time that could be spent racing or doing anything other than: writing and publishing NOR?s and SI, changing scratch sheets at the last minute, timing, scoring, spotting, signaling, yanking up unwieldy, muddy-anchored marks, not missing happy hour to hear a protest, etc? A boatload of smiling sailors passes by after the last race of a well-run regatta and yells ?thanks RC? and then I remember why.
Jeff and Kevin,
Thanks for the details... The racing in GB has improved... I will apologize for my generalization on the area, for today's racing (wow, I sound like my dad; "...back in the day...") ... when I got out, I met many people across the country that would not come back to GB because of the races were run (I remember a NOOD regatta where the wind shifted 60 degrees and no marks were changed)... I do realize that things have come a long way and it will take a while to change that reputation... there are some other factors that keep people away, but will not open that box... I am glad we have the qualified people we do... RC isn't easy and it is a thankless job... There are many people that are behind the scenes and they don't get recgonized... We need to make sure they are noticed, before trophies are handed out...
I am glad everyone is jumping in on this... we need to have passion for the things we love... even if you have to roll your eyes at me in the process... :-)
cheers...
Scott
Prior to a return to topic, I would like to add my voice to Kevin's. It ain't easy to do that job, and it is even harder to do it right. It takes planning and thinking and more than anything, knowledge of what is going on out there on the race course. We are stuck with a VERY limited body of water to work with and limited resouces for race operations, and if our volunteers sometimes cannot make miracles happen on shifty days, they are still our volunteers and we love 'em. All of us benefactors of the incredible effort and sacrifice should always remember to step up and say thanks.
OK
Why is it that perfectly good boats, run by excellent sailors, do not come out and play, especially in the "big" regattas. One of the on-going reasons is always, "I can't get crew for those races because all the "good" people are racing with someone else." Is that a real reason? Is our community so closed that new people cannot be brought in and trained up? Why is it that there is still no answer to one of my very first GBCA posts about the incredible number of great sailboats that one has to walk past every time one wants to go out racing in the bay. We have a lot of programs to help this problem, and I believe that there are even more people who would like to join in but don't know how.
The second issue is self-confidence. I have heard people, all the way from Wed nite non-spin boats to fully capable un-named 35 foot boats that regularly race Rum Races say that they are just not that serious or just in it for fun or more often, just don't know how to handle their boat with a spinaker up. What does it take to get these people to participate and realize that the folks who are out there all the time still put their pants on one leg at a time and that making mistakes is the only means of learning about things that you NEVER WANT TO DO AGAIN and having the lessons stick.
Come on out and play.
I tend to remember this conversation a Wednesday Night a few back, the people that have the experience want to get paid to teach... On one hand, why not? But, that limits our fleet... Maybe they forsee the addiction of buying spinnakers? There are pleny of used sails in a local resale shop, one can pick up cheap... With that being said, if there are some non-spin boat (or new spin boats), I will donate some time to discuss basic spinnaker techniques and some on-water drills... Maybe what GBCA can do, initiate a training day... the experienced sailors (that don't yell) can get together and go out with our newbies for a couple of hours to help build their confidence... Maybe use the TGIF's for this purpose... have a mini-skipper's meeting before the race (seminar) to talk about things to do and watch for... I am sure we can get some of our professional sailors, and even the unpaid ones, to give a hand... We are going to have to take the time and build the fleet, it won't happen by its self... We have put our time in and it is time to help someone else...
cheers...
Scott
I can relate to the "finding crew" thing... we are having to rebuild our crew, but we are accepting our
Gee Scott, maybe you could help out with the yearly GBCA Intro to Racing seminar. Once a year, GBCA volunteers teach a morning of rules, racing procedures (flags, timing, etc.) protests, and tactics followed by more volunteers climbing on boats with new racers regardless of whether they are boatowners / skippers or crew.
Quote from: BJSailor on August 11, 2009, 08:27:00 PM
Gee Scott, maybe you could help out with the yearly GBCA Intro to Racing seminar. Once a year, GBCA volunteers teach a morning of rules, racing procedures (flags, timing, etc.) protests, and tactics followed by more volunteers climbing on boats with new racers regardless of whether they are boatowners / skippers or crew.
The once a year thing is a great program and granted takes a lot of work to accomplish. Scott's idea of jumping on a newbies boat to help get them up to speed is another really good idea. Racing in a fleet of experienced racers can be intimidating for folks not used to doing so. This is particularly true with that big colorful sail up there. GBCA is a great club and a great "place to race" but there is always room for improvement. I can remember thinking how clickish the club can be prior to getting to know so many of its members(and vise~versa). To Scott's point I think there is more that can be done to get better and more participation from the Galveston Bay sailing community. I've always been kind of passionate about getting the classics and the cruiser racers to come out more often and I would be happy to make myself available as crew for some of those folks from time to time as well.
There are a lot of boats here that I think would really like to know that there is more to sailing in Galveston bay than reaching back and forth between the #2 and the ship channel.
The ?From the Commodore? section of the August Cannon contains this very same subject matter. It?s ironic, since I wrote it three weeks ago when visited by that particular muse. I decided to practice what I was preaching and crewed on a new boat for the rum race last weekend.
We tuned-up a little before the race and adjusted car leads and genoa luff tension. I brought my Cunningham and we set that up. We had a good start and had a respectable mid-fleet finish. I forgot at least half the points I wanted to emphasize along the way. Afterward, the skipper asked if we should?ve let off the Cunningham on the second leg (run). Doh! Everybody learned (or re-learned) something. I highly recommend it.
All the while Big John is shaking his head: ?Man, I was just trying to get a couple of level 70 boats to sign-up for the NOOD??
This thread has gone waaaay off course. To get back to trying to get as many L70s out for the NOOD as possible, how many are there here? I know Mille, Leading Edge, Parrot Tales, Hydrodyne, Rowdy (still around?), and a couple sprit boats here and there (Painkiller and Goldrush) that might squeek in. Are there more L70s lurking in the marinas that need to be woken up? How about out of town? September is right around the corner and the entries of late are really lacking...time to get on it!
"BJSailor"... I have no problem with coming out... I think we might have to implement another day for training... the problem I have been told about, and tapped into professionally, is to teach people on their own boats... anyone can take sailing lessons and seminars, but it is different when we step on their boat, with their crew, and give some pointers... Maybe have a start or two at the end where the coaches cannot touch the tiller or any lines? In racing Blind Worlds, you learn that you have to communicate and teach what you want; you cannot touch anything (as a sighted sailor)... I know we have a lot of talent out here that is willing to help out... I am throwing out ideas, not saying I have all the answers or the details, but our fleet is shrinking...
Evan, you are repeating John's point and frustration... the boats are there, but not sailing... the point I tried to bring out is that boats like "Painkiller", "Gold Rush", and the other sprit boats, is that they are not allowed in L70 (I might be wrong on the current rules; yes/no?)... Maybe the race committee can disregard the L70 rule and form a 70 class that will include ratings of 70-79... sprit or sym... It takes a lot of work and the 70 guys need to make phone calls and get the others fired up... "Rowdy" is still around and sailing the TRIF and Icicle Races (I've been doing some sailing with Bill and crew)...
Kuddos Kevin... I think we should use the TGIF's to get some people up-to-pace... I have started bringing my kids out on these...