Icicle Series Standings

[Hamburger]

Does anybody know where the Icicle Series standings are being published this year? I seem to be having a hard time finding them.

Thanks for any help!

[Bee]

Unfortunately for you, you are tied with me. 

[Tye Dyed Gary]

  I hope this isn't letting out a dirty little secret, but.  The results from the first race were misplaced before they could be completely imputed. Plus there were questions of accuracy. On the second race, because it went overtime, that is one of the problems. And some of the boats were not displaying class flags were mixed in with the finishers. We may have to use this as a lessen learned, and go with the last three races. But the parties are great.

[STuma]

Simle; no class flag - no finish...

[Deckhand]

I still have a chance

[Hamburger No 1]

I'm sure everybody will be shocked to know that I disagree with tossing the first two races - particularly considering the hardy souls that did Race 1 (I wasn't one of those......). Surely we can get the participants of that race to publish their recollection as to the results here to get agreement on the finish order. We can then populate the series results with that. This is supposed to be casual!!

Regarding the issue of the class flag: I agree that the SI's are clear on the issue and we can make the case that folks that don't have the right flag should not be scored. Nonetheless I'm in favor of allowing considerable leniency in enforcing this particular rule, because this is a rum race series and not a world championship. The emphasis is on casual and fun. The main objective of the flag is to let the winners identify who's in their class and needs to be listed in the finish order. This has worked without much ado for many years. Do we really want to disqualify somebody because, e.g., they lost the flag during the race, or the winner didn't think somebody's flag was 'dark' enough or too red instead of pink or such? Yes, it meets the letter of the SI, but I want to claim that is violates the spirit of the event. I see little wrong with allowing the winner of the class to use their experience/discretion in determining whether a finisher is in their class and should be scored. Are there really mistakes being made? I can certainly say that when I saw Uzi coming through the finish with his kite up I didn't have to check his flag to see if he was in my class. I didn't look in his case or that of the other finishers in my class. Let's remind those who aren't using the right flag to fix that for next time, but I think it's over the top to find it necessary to disqualify somebody for this (maybe just dock them the rum?). Would you really be proud of your result if you got beaten on the race course and win on this technicality?

Let's remember the casual nature of this series!

jus' my thoughts.

[STuma]

I do agree with keeping the spirit of the event, but which spirit?

Do we abide by the RRS? Do we fly sails larger than we are rated for? Do we use illegal "Code 0's"? Do we start early? All because it is a casual event? Or do we designate rules and keep ourselves, and others, within them? Where do we draw the line? Can we disregard the fact that starboard tack has rights because it might be inconvenient, or someone forgot?

I have been blasted as an organizer and r/c for both sides of this discussion... This event is not the simple booze cruise it was even 25 years ago with only 2 classes... Many people go full out.. There is fouling, cheating, and manipulating of the rules... Now, seeing someone sailing though the finish with their chute is very obvious, or if you see two people in the cockpit when they finish - they are more than likely racing short handed... But, what if I'm racing the J-80 by myself... am I spin, non-spin, short handed? Or can I pick based on how I'm doing? I could intend to race against spin until I finish back enough I can now win SOS... What if we are racing standard course and everyone is reaching in? Who is spin and non-spin? Are we going to waive the protest flag requirement next? How is someone recording finishes going to know who is in their class? Really? The first boat may not know who is 4th or 5th. I doubt they are paying attention that close. Or, sometimes the first boat is a couple of minutes ahead of the second boat, which is a minute or two ahead of the third boat; now insert several boats from other classes and the fourth and fifth boat could be several  (maybe 10) minutes behind that... But, if they are flying a chute; that's easy. It's not meant to me mean or harsh, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. When it was a dark flag and a light flag, it was easy. Pink, dark, white, orange are pretty different colors; but they could be mistaken if we were finishing after dark.

Now, we could make this easy and have some method of the boats "ping" their finish somehow. Maybe a GPS tracker that automatically records your finish time when it crosses a line between #1 & #2. That would take the hassle and inconvenience from the competitors and guessing who is in which class... I have been on plenty of boats that have been outside the 5. When you're coming in to finish, you know the boats around you and who you have been battling with for the last 45 minutes.. It becomes very easy to see the boats in front and determine who is what class. But, this still plagues people with the inconvenience of determining what class they are going to sail in... And again, it comes back to simplicity...  This event is successful because of it's simplicity and casual ambiance. Be careful of making things too complicated, and/or too casual. People will take advantage of both... Maybe the simplest approach is displaying your class flag as stated in the SIs. Many times, people have had to cough up a particular color of clothing to be used as a flag for a Rum Race. Maybe, "we" could acquire some flags from one, or several, of the sail lofts in the area and hand them out. Have them stick their logo on them... BAM!!! advertising...

One idea to make things simpler; maybe we shouldn't award any prizes, where everyone is a winner... This way, someone who has worked hard and put forward the time, effort, and money doesn't make the rest of us feel bad and get discouraged. But, that isn't how this sport works, or any sport in real life - right? With this "supposed to be casual", it shouldn't be a big deal to not record anything for the first two races. It wasn't a big deal to make sure the finishes were recorded. Maybe we could have the first boat text the finishes to someone... or each of the five first boats text their finish time... I'm pretty sure the first boat knows who they are, and if they failed to record the finishes, they should be DSQd and the second boat takes their position. But, your argument - we do not have the finishes... I'm sure the boats in the class know who they finished around.

But, I vote no flag, no finish. I guarantee that if someone is not recorded, they will definitely have a flag on the backstay with probably 3-4 zip ties to make sure it isn't "lost" again. What if the first boat doesn't have a flag? Well, they really can't be the first one to record times. And, I'm sure the second boat will be able to notice if they have a flag or not. But, that is something that needs to be clarified in the SIs.  This is why the Sailing Instructions have become several pages in length, the race committee/organizer has to clarify these items that are common sense clear, but can be manipulated for gain. You asked if there really are that many mistakes... I think the sprit of this thread proves that fact - sometimes there are and boat finishes are not very clear.  But to answer your last question; sailboat racing starts with knowing the technicalities....

[DarinK]

As mentioned, I left the hand written scribble of results at the clubhouse after the party for Icicle #1, and they were thrown away.  These four in Spin Sprit, to the best of our recollection, were the only submitted.  Please let me know if you see any discrepancies.

http://results.gbca.org/?race=2017%20Cruzan%20Icicle%20Series%20%231&showAll=1

[gwittich]

Sooner or later every PRO encounters scoring errors.
They can usually be resolved in the Corinthian Spirit by talking to relevant finishers.
No reason to throw out a good race.

[DarinK]

"We may have to use this as a lessen learned, and go with the last three races. But the parties are great."

To be clear, we will not be throwing out any races.  The current results are correct, as far as I know.  Some start and finish times aren't exact, but the ordering is, as far as I know.

As for the boats that finished after 3pm, they will be counted DSQ.  As of now, there is a limitation with the software that allows either DSQ or a finish time.  I want to keep the finish times, so I am making a change that should be finished sometime today.

Also, I am working on the series total site.  Should be done "soon."

[Bee]

I really do not care whether or not races or thrown out.  I no longer care whether or not I even place in any of the races. At my age I understand that in a few more years no one is going to care or even remember that Bee Bednar raced. So, I have decide that for here on out,  the number one goal of any race I run is to maximize fun.

I do agree that everyone should follow the RRS's and when one violates any rule he should be called out. When it was called to my attention that I finished one of last year's Rum Races after the deadline, I withdrew. I am aware of at least one other boat, helmed by someone I consider a prince of a guy,  withdrew when it was clear that he had also violated a rule. Since I am also aware of several rule violations by boats that did not withdraw, I can understand the concern, but I am going to consider Icicles and Rum Races as that.  They are fun and that is what I am after.

On the other hand, I do care when someone suggests that someone's spinnaker, jumbo or code 0, is illegal.  I do care when I hear that PHRFGB is going to investigate J105's and J109's for the use of illegal sails.  I will need some pretty strong evidence to conclude that any current J105 or J109 is sailing with any kind of illegal sail. Their sails are made by local and national lofts and they all know what the limits are. Why focus only on J105's and J109's?  I suspect I know but I won't tell.

I was surprised when told that  PHRFGB was going to require that J105's use chutes no larger then 110 sq mt.  This is what J/Boats described as the largest a US J105 should fly. It is possible to make one larger then that but I suspect that, except for very light air, it would not be much help. Euro 105's have a different mast and can fly a much larger one off the masthead. Most US J105 mast's could not handle the extra force. According to Butch Boos (C&C Sailmakers) the original measurements of my jumbo comes in at 109.9 sq. mt.  I had him remeasure for my ORC certificate.  ORC says its 111 sq. mt.  Butch says that is due to stretch and is .9% larger then 110.  Does this mean I will have to take a 3 sec/mile hit?  According to PHRF regs, the sail has to be 2% larger in order to get a 3 sec hit.  ORC says my code 0 is actually a small kite.  What does PHRFGB think?  Is it going to be illegal? I really would like to know.

I do agree with keeping the spirit of the event, but which spirit?

Do we abide by the RRS? Do we fly sails larger than we are rated for? Do we use illegal "Code 0's"? Do we start early? All because it is a casual event? Or do we designate rules and keep ourselves, and others, within them? Where do we draw the line? Can we disregard the fact that starboard tack has rights because it might be inconvenient, or someone forgot?

[DarinK]

fyi.. result for #2 are fixed with appropriate DSQs.  You may need to hold shift when you refresh to see the current, non-cached results.

http://results.gbca.org/?race=2017%20Cruzan%20Icicle%20Series%20%232&showAll=1

[Tye Dyed Gary]

All this and we still don't have Series Standings !!!

[STuma]

Bee,

I understand your point. After a while, we come back full circle and realize the real reason we are out here - to have fun with friends.

To answer your questions about my inquiry (I will say 'my' because I do not speak for PHRFGB, you will need to attend a meeting and get a committee response); when looking at sail measurements, we noticed there were some chutes that had a square footage that was larger than the understood square footage should be. I'm sorry you misunderstood, but we are not only looking at the 105s and 109s. EVERY asym boat is being looked at; 105, 109, 122, 120, 92, 92s, 111, Melges 24, Melges 32, Ben 10R, C&C 110, etc... We started looking at asym sizes a few years ago when we realized PHRF did not have any restriction of asym chutes (not like the sym chute restriction of 1.. We evaluated and researched each boat with an asym. With the ORC measurements, we realized that chutes were coming in larger than claimed. We started digging further into this to verify. This is very simple, we are asking for a SIGNED sail certificates. You are very correct about the PHRF chute for the 105 is 110 sq. meters; as well as the understood square footage for the 109 is 121 sq. meters. There are some boats who exceed these numbers. We are trying our best to develop a matrix that is as fair as possible. Now, if you guys run 1D with PHRF sails, that is for y'all to settle the differences.

For the Code 0s, I have my suspicion of some sails not fitting the rule. I grew up designing, building, and testing screachers for multihulls... I know exactly what the difference is and the benefit of a screacher over a true code 0. I think some people are mistaken that a Code 0 on a Volvo boat is the same as a Code 0 PHRF allows. The girth requirement is very specific:
'10.18 Asymmetric Spinnakers.
To be classified as an asymmetric spinnaker a sail must meet the following criteria:
10.18.1 The luff shall be at least 5 percent longer than the leech (see 10.21).
10.18.2 The mid girth (see 10.23) shall not be less than 75 percent of the foot length (see 10.22). ' via 2017 ORR Rulebook.

I personally think each sail used on the boat should have a signed certificate submitted before receiving your rating.

PHRFGB is not requiring 105 chutes to follow the 110 limit (Making the 110 and 121 the absolute limit would make things SO much easier), we are trying to build something to accommodate the chutes that exceed it.  Why would you be surprised? The issue is that several boats have been rated under one set of parameters, but sailing under another. Regarding your big chute; depending on which formula one uses, the size can vary. I can talk to Butch on which one he is using. My feeling on the size; how are sails measured for a circuit, or national regatta? How does your class kite measure in? They measure the actual sail, and do not accept the design numbers. But, this is only my opinion, not the stance of PHRFGB. I would suggest you run through the proper channels and submit your question to PHRFGB so that it can be addressed at a meeting, with the full committee - not just my opinion. This is why we are asking for sail certificates. Please let me know where you saw sails get a free 2%, as I am not aware of this.  A limit is a limit. Do you get a 2% variance with your 1D sails?

I would love to sit down with you and discuss more and get your input on how to fairly resolve this dilemma.

I really do not care whether or not races or thrown out.  I no longer care whether or not I even place in any of the races. At my age I understand that in a few more years no one is going to care or even remember that Bee Bednar raced. So, I have decide that for here on out,  the number one goal of any race I run is to maximize fun.

I do agree that everyone should follow the RRS's and when one violates any rule he should be called out. When it was called to my attention that I finished one of last year's Rum Races after the deadline, I withdrew. I am aware of at least one other boat, helmed by someone I consider a prince of a guy,  withdrew when it was clear that he had also violated a rule. Since I am also aware of several rule violations by boats that did not withdraw, I can understand the concern, but I am going to consider Icicles and Rum Races as that.  They are fun and that is what I am after.

On the other hand, I do care when someone suggests that someone's spinnaker, jumbo or code 0, is illegal.  I do care when I hear that PHRFGB is going to investigate J105's and J109's for the use of illegal sails.  I will need some pretty strong evidence to conclude that any current J105 or J109 is sailing with any kind of illegal sail. Their sails are made by local and national lofts and they all know what the limits are. Why focus only on J105's and J109's?  I suspect I know but I won't tell.

I was surprised when told that  PHRFGB was going to require that J105's use chutes no larger then 110 sq mt.  This is what J/Boats described as the largest a US J105 should fly. It is possible to make one larger then that but I suspect that, except for very light air, it would not be much help. Euro 105's have a different mast and can fly a much larger one off the masthead. Most US J105 mast's could not handle the extra force. According to Butch Boos (C&C Sailmakers) the original measurements of my jumbo comes in at 109.9 sq. mt.  I had him remeasure for my ORC certificate.  ORC says its 111 sq. mt.  Butch says that is due to stretch and is .9% larger then 110.  Does this mean I will have to take a 3 sec/mile hit?  According to PHRF regs, the sail has to be 2% larger in order to get a 3 sec hit.  ORC says my code 0 is actually a small kite.  What does PHRFGB think?  Is it going to be illegal? I really would like to know.

I do agree with keeping the spirit of the event, but which spirit?

Do we abide by the RRS? Do we fly sails larger than we are rated for? Do we use illegal "Code 0's"? Do we start early? All because it is a casual event? Or do we designate rules and keep ourselves, and others, within them? Where do we draw the line? Can we disregard the fact that starboard tack has rights because it might be inconvenient, or someone forgot?

[Hamburger No 1]

Regarding the kite measurements: I've heard that there are several calculation method for kite area that end up resulting in different sizes for the same kite dimensions (I guess they account differently for the shape of the sail in areas that aren't directly measured?). Where is it determined which method PHRF is supposed to use? What if you have a sail that measures ok using one method and too large using another?